Are you buying Theia when it is available? (Poll)

Are you buying Theia when it is available?


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G37X Jockey

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It is highly unlikely radar gun manufacturers would spend money to redesign their guns in response to the small percent of the driving public who will be using Theia nor would police department buy them if they did.

The percent of the driving public who use radar detectors is small and the percent using Theia will be even smaller.
Yup. I/O already exists and will continue to be our biggest enemy. Radar gun manufacturers have no need to develop anything in reaction to Theia.
Anyhow, as Radenso has made clear, any new radar technology will show up in the patent office and Rai/Theia will be all over it.
Remember back in the 1990's, when Ka band was introduced? Our X and K band RD's were obsolete overnight. But the RD manufacturers responded quickly and the game continued.
I predict in a similar circumstance Radenso won't even miss a beat.
 

Godowsky17

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Yup. I/O already exists and will continue to be our biggest enemy. Radar gun manufacturers have no need to develop anything in reaction to Theia.
Anyhow, as Radenso has made clear, any new radar technology will show up in the patent office and Rai/Theia will be all over it.
Remember back in the 1990's, when Ka band was introduced? Our X and K band RD's were obsolete overnight. But the RD manufacturers responded quickly and the game continued.
I predict in a similar circumstance Radenso won't even miss a beat.
Considering training on a new gun and releasing an update to cover it will take less than a day from start to finish, and considering that the set of radar guns available for LE use is quite small and new guns are rarely released, I'd say Radenso will be quite a few steps ahead of the manufacturers in this regard considering it will take the manufacturers years to create a new product and get it approved for use, let alone how long it will take before it is actually adopted by law enforcement agencies.
 

Heywood

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Exactly.
Just look around at how many people actually use radar detectors in the first place.
Not many.
There’s just so many fish in the sea.

Just look at it from the manufactures side. The cost of R&D. The tooling. The patent cost.

Then you have to convince someone to buy it. All because of 1 radar detector

It’s just not worth it for a manufacture to go through all that for 1 radar detector.

Lidar different animal and different use. The ability to pinpoint a particular vehicles speed on a cluttered highway. The abilities of a detector not picking it up is just a bonus, not the objective.
 

Token

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Luckily a lot of the challenges we face are signals that can be resolved even with extremely low SNR - there is just so much information in modulated signals that frankly we wouldn't even need AI to tell the difference. With CW signals is where we have to be careful with weak signals.
Yeah, absolutely, telling an FMCW signal, a UWB FMOP signal, or any pulsed signal from a CW signal should be a no brainer, and not being in the detector technical community I have always wondered how detectors can false at all on those types of signals. There should be some pretty simple ways to discriminate those, and then after that low hanging fruit you would be down to fewer possible falsing targets. As I understand it there are relatively few real FMCW threats, and bandwidths and chirp rates should be a give away there.

T!
 

Jon at Radenso

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Yeah, absolutely, telling an FMCW signal, a UWB FMOP signal, or any pulsed signal from a CW signal should be a no brainer, and not being in the detector technical community I have always wondered how detectors can false at all on those types of signals. There should be some pretty simple ways to discriminate those, and then after that low hanging fruit you would be down to fewer possible falsing targets. As I understand it there are relatively few real FMCW threats, and bandwidths and chirp rates should be a give away there.

T!
My engineers were absolutely shocked that current detectors falsed to BSM, and especially when they had mrct and mrcd turned off. With those alerts turned off the only thing detectors should be looking for was CW signals, yet they are confusing 200mhz wide fmcw for cw. It's astounding how dumb they are.
 

Vortex

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My engineers were absolutely shocked that current detectors falsed to BSM, and especially when they had mrct and mrcd turned off. With those alerts turned off the only thing detectors should be looking for was CW signals, yet they are confusing 200mhz wide fmcw for cw. It's astounding how dumb they are.
How simplistic are the front ends of most RD’s given that they can’t tell the difference? It sounds like this should have been resolved years ago.

As for the new radar guns thing, yeah, given that it’s so difficult for new radar guns to be developed and how easy it is for Theia to be trained on something new, I can’t see that being an issue, especially considering that there’s nothing new from the radar gun’s perspective.

Theia should have longer range than other RD’s, but otherwise who cares if a driver is using Theia vs another RD? The officer can just use IO and it’s all the same from their perspective. The biggest difference will be for drivers who don’t get all the false alerts.

Edit: There seems to be some confusion about this post. I’m not saying that Theia won’t be a big deal for us. Of course it will be. I’m suggesting it’s not gonna be a game changer for radar guns manufacturers and force them to come up with something new just to defeat Theia... which is all the better for us.
 
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Token

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How simplistic are the front ends of most RD’s given that they can’t tell the difference? It sounds like this should have been resolved years ago.
Just at a really basic level I would think that any detector that has the ability to give you a frequency indicated down to some small number, say 5 MHz or so (that is a random example that I think should work, you could probably have greater granularity than that and be OK), should have the potential to identify wideband signals. Detectors that just ID band, because they see the entire band as one, or just a few, cells or bins, may not. The better the resolution the more you can do with signal ID.

Theia should have longer range than other RD’s, but otherwise who cares if a driver is using Theia vs another RD? The officer can just use IO and it’s all the same from their perspective. The biggest difference will be for drivers who don’t get all the false alerts.
I know you know this already, just stating it as it applies to my specific use.

With the terrain I have around here (the High Desert of California) and the lack of vegetation I quite often get hits with my R7 and R3 at several miles range. An officer hitting another vehicle with I/O way, way, beyond visual range to me can still alert me, so more sensitivity is more better ;) I realize that is not as big a benefit for some people in some terrains and coverages, but more sensitivity, as long as there is not an associated increased false rate, should always be better.

T!
 
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Vortex

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With the terrain I have around here (the High Desert of California) and the lack of vegetation I quite often get hits with my R7 and R3 at several miles range. An officer hitting another vehicle with I/O way, way, beyond visual range to me can still alert me, so more sensitivity is more better ;) I realize that is not as big a benefit for some people in some terrains and coverages, but more sensitivity, as long as there is not an associated increased false rate, should always be better.
Oh agreed. It'll definitely be better for us as RD users. Having longe range in those situations, plus having the RD tell you this is specifically I/O is a big deal. :)

I was referring to what would change for police officers that would motivate radar gun manufacturers to change their equipment to make it harder for Theia.
 

G37X Jockey

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Just at a really basic level I would think that any detector that has the ability to give you a frequency indicated down to some small number, say 5 MHz or so (that is a random example that I think should work, you could probably have greater granularity than that and be OK), should have the potential to identify wideband signals. Detectors that just ID band, because they see the entire band as one, or just a few, cells or bins, may not. The better the resolution the more you can do with signal ID.



I know you know this already, just stating it as it applies to my specific use.

With the terrain I have around here (the High Desert of California) and the lack of vegetation I quite often get hits with my R7 and R3 at several miles range. An officer hitting another vehicle with I/O way, way, beyond visual range to me can still alert me, so more sensitivity is more better ;) I realize that is not as big a benefit for some people in some terrains and coverages, but more sensitivity, as long as there is not an associated increased false rate, should always be better.

T!
Dramatically increased range without false alerts (Theia's promise) is the only defense against I/O. Hopefully Theia will the game changer we all hope it will be.
 

oldcelt

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AFAIK, there are no SP's (nut jobs who are butt hurt fanatics that don't care about the profits/ROI) in charge of the gun manufacturing companies.
 

SquirrelMaster

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How simplistic are the front ends of most RD’s given that they can’t tell the difference? It sounds like this should have been resolved years ago.
I believe the RF front ends of most RDs are more complicated due to manufacturers wanting to save component costs.
 

DC Fluid

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How simplistic are the front ends of most RD’s given that they can’t tell the difference? It sounds like this should have been resolved years ago.

As for the new radar guns thing, yeah, given that it’s so difficult for new radar guns to be developed and how easy it is for Theia to be trained on something new, I can’t see that being an issue, especially considering that there’s nothing new from the radar gun’s perspective.

Theia should have longer range than other RD’s, but otherwise who cares if a driver is using Theia vs another RD? The officer can just use IO and it’s all the same from their perspective. The biggest difference will be for drivers who don’t get all the false alerts.
False alerts on the R7 for me is very tolerable, even my wife comments how quiet it is on vacation. (She runs the Pro M daily)
Theia the lack of false alerts will be a huge point.
But for me in the curving mountainous, treed terrain of BC and the large use of I/O the appeal of obscene range in a detector is picking up those shots at others a lesser detector missed, giving that early moonshot to alert of danger ahead.
R7 has been stellar so far, but I still get brown streaked with the light traffic these days.
Obscene range and zero false alerts. I'm in.
 
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G37X Jockey

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False alerts on the R7 for me is very tolerable, even my wife comments how quiet it is on vacation. (She runs the Pro M daily)
Theia the lack of false alerts will be a huge point.
But for me in the curving mountainous, treed terrain of BC and the large use of I/O the appeal of obscene range in a detector is picking up those shots at others a lesser detector missed, giving that early moonshot to alert of danger ahead.
R7 has been stellar so far, but I still get brow streaked with the light traffic these days.
Obscene range and zero false alerts. I'm in.
X10. If Theia delivers, it'll essentially be the holy grail of RD's. All of the compromises we've grown used to over the decades will not be missed by me.
Drive into an unfamiliar area and wonder if it's a false or real K band? Nope.
A short K blip on the highway and then guess if it's a BSM or approaching I/O? Nope.
I/O will remain a threat, but less so than now if Theia's range is a significant improvement over the best RD's we have in our cars now.
Can't wait.
 

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False alerts on the R7 for me is very tolerable, even my wife comments how quiet it is on vacation. (She runs the Pro M daily)
Theia the lack of false alerts will be a huge point.
But for me in the curving mountainous, treed terrain of BC and the large use of I/O the appeal of obscene range in a detector is picking up those shots at others a lesser detector missed, giving that early moonshot to alert of danger ahead.
R7 has been stellar so far, but I still get brown streaked with the light traffic these days.
Obscene range and zero false alerts. I'm in.
Yes of course, I agree, but we’re talking about two different things. An even longer range RD that’s awesome against CO and IO with no more false alerts is a game changer for us as drivers.

We were also talking about if it’s also going to affect police officers as much, a related but different issue, as well as if and how radar gun manufacturers would try and counter Theia in response.

I’ve gone back and clarified my previous post in case it was confusing.
 

Vortex

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I believe the RF front ends of most RDs are more complicated due to manufacturers wanting to save component costs.
For sure. It seems to be the same technology we’ve had for decades though. Are we still using 80’s or 90’s era tech, for example, just with some software improvements like FFT analysis?
 

SwankPeRFection

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One way for radar gun manufacturers to try and get around it is with randomized power-ups on tigger pulls. What I mean is that they’d have to devise a way to power the gun to get a reading while randomly pulsing its power with each and every trigger pull. I’m not even sure if that’s possible, but the videos from SEMA show that when triggering the gun differently, the “swoosh” comes on the same way, but at different intervals. The thing is, if you watch the AI video, you can see that even if the readout “looks similar”, it’ll still see the threat and tag is appropriately. If the AI is trained correctly, it will be able to tell. It’s like the ability to tell actors from partial face features or their voice when watching a movie and you don’t know who’s in it and everyone has CG or real makeup/masks on, manipulating their appearance by a good margin.

I personally would love to see how Theia behaves and if response time is hindered if someone was to take a gun and just go random trigger happy with it in the lab and even real world. I’m not so much interested in if the gun can get a speed ID when doing this, I’m more interested to know if Theia can still differentiate it. I’d also love to pull one of those guns apart and mess with it’s power up circuitry to add something that would almost mimic a random/adjustable monetary switch for its trigger pull and/or power up on hits. I don’t know enough about the electronics in these things, but I do sometimes tend to come up with some wacky out of the box ideas on solving or causing problems. Haha. It would certainly be a fun lab day.
 

Jon at Radenso

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Just at a really basic level I would think that any detector that has the ability to give you a frequency indicated down to some small number, say 5 MHz or so (that is a random example that I think should work, you could probably have greater granularity than that and be OK), should have the potential to identify wideband signals. Detectors that just ID band, because they see the entire band as one, or just a few, cells or bins, may not. The better the resolution the more you can do with signal ID.
Yes, frankly pretty much every detector should be able to do this today. You only need four things to make that happen:

1. A rf front end with reasonable noise figure (which I believe the R7/Max360C/etc do have)
2. An architecture that can tell you with reasonable accuracy where energy in a channel is (which the R7 and Max360C definitely have)
3. A DSP engineer that can write basic filters
4. A digital architecture that has either a FPGA or a DSP chip to run said filters (Max 360C and R7 have)

Frankly, the Max360C or R7 should be totally capable of rarely false alerting to BSM. I am not sure why they do other than criminally under utilizing the fpga and dsp chip since they are just doing an integrate and dump.


Since you brought up bins and channels, here is Theia's channel mapping scheme. Each channel is 61.44mhz wide and within that 61.44mhz, we have a resolution of 128 specific bins. So in total, we have 53 channels of which we can look at 6784 specific bins and apply statistics to. Each channel is sampled instantaneously at 61.44msps, though we can change that on the fly depending on how much bandwidth we are trying to look at at any given time.

Screen Shot 2020-05-06 at 11.38.54 PM.png
 
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Token

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2. An architecture that can tell you with reasonable accuracy where energy in a channel is (which the R7 and Max360C definitely have)
<<<<snip>>>>
4. A digital architecture that has either a FPGA or a DSP chip to run said filters (Max 360C and R7 have)
Every since detectors came out with actual frequency readouts that seemed to be somewhat representative and near real time, vs simple band indications, and have had firmware updates, I have suspected that they have potentially much more capability than we have been shown. I have assumed that some detector vendors have been delivering “enough” without striving to achieve the maximum possible development.

I mean, if the average customer is reasonably happy and willing to lay out cash for the new product, that is all you need to achieve to be a profitable business. You don’t have to satisfy the small percentage of enthusiast to make a profit from consumers. And that means you do not have to deliver the best possible performance, just “good enough” will do.

And it leaves overhead in a companies current design. If the hardware is capable of more than is being delivered then the company can leverage that for future release. You don’t have to do a complete redesign, just some minor changes, repackage, and throw a little more effort at getting closer to the potential of the hardware. One basic design can run for years, with minor facelifts along the way, showing apparent improvements / product investment along the way and maximizing the profit of that effort.

Since you brought up bins and channels, here is Theia's channel mapping scheme. Each channel is 61.44mhz wide and within that 61.44mhz, we have a resolution of 128 specific bins. So in total, we have 53 channels of which we can look at 6784 specific bins and apply statistics to. Each channel is sampled instantaneously at 61.44msps, though we can change that on the fly depending on how much bandwidth we are trying to look at at any given time.
Thanks for sharing that insight.

480 kHz bins should be pretty nice, in those bands room for a reasonably stable CW channel and not a lot else. With 61.44 MHz channels and 61.44 Msps you are under sampled, so you must be doing something about aliasing.

T!
 

MikePA

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Every since detectors came out with actual frequency readouts that seemed to be somewhat representative and near real time, vs simple band indications, and have had firmware updates, I have suspected that they have potentially much more capability than we have been shown. I have assumed that some detector vendors have been delivering “enough” without striving to achieve the maximum possible development.

I mean, if the average customer is reasonably happy and willing to lay out cash for the new product, that is all you need to achieve to be a profitable business. You don’t have to satisfy the small percentage of enthusiast to make a profit from consumers. And that means you do not have to deliver the best possible performance, just “good enough” will do.

And it leaves overhead in a companies current design. If the hardware is capable of more than is being delivered then the company can leverage that for future release. You don’t have to do a complete redesign, just some minor changes, repackage, and throw a little more effort at getting closer to the potential of the hardware. One basic design can run for years, with minor facelifts along the way, showing apparent improvements / product investment along the way and maximizing the profit of that effort.
What additional capability does the average customer, or any customer really, need from a radar detector, including Theia?

1. Provide enough warning to slow down and avoid getting a speeding ticket, i.e., long range detection, the promise of Theia.
2. Minimal or no false alerts, i.e., no false alerts, the promise of Theia.

Given that current, i.e., old paradigm, radar detectors are not radar detectors, rather they are frequency detectors, I am hard pressed to see what more Uniden, Escort, et. al., could do to improve the devices they make, regardless of what spare capability they possess.
 
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