V1G2 vs Falcon HR (Low Powered K Band) C/O---GR Course

croup

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Had a couple of hours this morning to try out my newly acquired Falcon HR...Set up in the same spot as some of my testing a week ago....Was by myself so Falcon was on dash with trigger held down by trusty rubber band...

First made a few passes with Range Setting on the Falcon set at minimum (level 1)....Manual says target range is 250FT (90 Meters)….My setup on this course, the way Falcon was positioned on dash and terrain limited you could not get a speed reading from passing cars. However I wanted to see how detector reacted. Made a quick run the same settings as the other day

A K Ver On
A K Ver Off
l K Ver On
l K Ver Off
L K Ver On
L K Ver Off

My impressions....Was satisfied with range on most settings except L settings (more on those settings later). Ramp up though...Something has to change....


Next....Cranked up Range Setting to maximum (level 5)….Watched multiple cars pass both small and large so I could know exactly where kill zone is and Falcon was acquiring speed......Only made two passes because I was only wanted to see what

L K Ver On
L K Ver Off

Let's just say those with smaller cars you would still get a save only because the Falcon could not acquire your speed due to tree branches and brush obstructing....Not because you were alerted before entering the kill zone of larger vehicles......Folks in a truck like me like me would more than likely be having a roadside chat.....

Final notes, the alert bar maybe once full tilted (have to review videos) on all runs in all modes...Not acceptable

I personally will never run in Advanced Logic due to K band threats....Happy though with what I saw from all other 4 settings listed other than that dang alert level staying at 4 or below....

Videos will be posted in the next couple of days.....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Was able to put together one quick video that pretty much tells the tale....Still going to picture and picture since I have rear camera facing the G2 so one can see the alert at the same time but still very slow with my editing skills and don't have enough time to figure it out again with other obligations to tend to right now...

Note Falcon was in G Style for these two clips....Not the recommended style but take notice



View of V1 in G style so one can see my concern


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Test Reran with Falcon HR mounted vertically (sitting upside down on dash)...Each run with K Ver On includes the rear horn view as I am heading out for next run.....

L Mode K Ver On


L Mode K Ver Off



l Mode K Ver On


l Mode K Ver Off


A Mode K Ver On


A Mode K Ver Off

 
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sdrawkcaB

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Thanks for taking the time to test. I'm definitely looking forward to the videos, to better understand how the foliage was around you.
 

InsipidMonkey

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Looking forward to the results as well!

A few notes:
1. The range setting does not affect the output of the gun, it only affects the receive sensitivity.
2. Did you have the gun vertical or on its side? Since the Falcon HR is linearly polarized, turning it on its side drastically cuts down on detection range.
 

croup

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Looking forward to the results as well!

A few notes:
1. The range setting does not affect the output of the gun, it only affects the receive sensitivity.
2. Did you have the gun vertical or on its side? Since the Falcon HR is linearly polarized, turning it on its side drastically cuts down on detection range.

Thanks so much for the input...

A few notes:
1. The range setting does not affect the output of the gun, it only affects the receive sensitivity.

Did not know but I figured after seeing the detector alert in same areas on range setting...


2. Did you have the gun vertical or on its side? Since the Falcon HR is linearly polarized, turning it on its side drastically cuts down on detection range.

Again did not know....Had it on its side on the dash....
 

Brainstorm69

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Thanks so much for the input...

A few notes:
1. The range setting does not affect the output of the gun, it only affects the receive sensitivity.

Did not know but I figured after seeing the detector alert in same areas on range setting...


2. Did you have the gun vertical or on its side? Since the Falcon HR is linearly polarized, turning it on its side drastically cuts down on detection range.

Again did not know....Had it on its side on the dash....

Thanks, @croup for your testing! Given the linear polarization of the gun, you should probably re-run your tests with the Falcon HR sitting upside down on the dash.
 

RedRocket

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Thanks, @croup for your testing! Given the linear polarization of the gun, you should probably re-run your tests with the Falcon HR sitting upside down on the dash.
Looking forward to the results as well!

A few notes:
1. The range setting does not affect the output of the gun, it only affects the receive sensitivity.
2. Did you have the gun vertical or on its side? Since the Falcon HR is linearly polarized, turning it on its side drastically cuts down on detection range.
Thanks so much for the input...

A few notes:
1. The range setting does not affect the output of the gun, it only affects the receive sensitivity.

Did not know but I figured after seeing the detector alert in same areas on range setting...


2. Did you have the gun vertical or on its side? Since the Falcon HR is linearly polarized, turning it on its side drastically cuts down on detection range.

Again did not know....Had it on its side on the dash....
This needs to be empirically investigated more in depth. The Patch Array antenna is comprised of 2 individual "banks" of 32 elements each- (one "bank" above & one "bank" below when held in normal holding position).
Therefore, all together there are 8 rows vertically & 8 rows horizontal for a total of 64 elements.
The Main lobe Beam forming shape should be exactly the same whether held upright or gangsta style.

Held upright, my R7 & RL-O can easily detect it at 5.5mi. - never thought to try it gangsta style at that time.
 

Brainstorm69

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This needs to be empirically investigated more in depth. The Patch Array antenna is comprised of 2 individual "banks" of 32 elements each- (one "bank" above & one "bank" below when held in normal holding position).
Therefore, all together there are 8 rows vertically & 8 rows horizontal for a total of 64 elements.
The Main lobe Beam forming shape should be exactly the same whether held upright or gangsta style.

Held upright, my R7 & RL-O can easily detect it at 5.5mi. - never thought to try it gangsta style at that time.
So are you saying that different elements may be polarized linearly in different directions (i.e., some vertically and some horizontally)?
 

RedRocket

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So are you saying that different elements may be polarized linearly in different directions (i.e., some vertically and some horizontally)?
No - careful observation of the r.f. transmission lines feeding each individual element shows they are ALL equal in length - that translates to mean each & every element is fed "in-phase" to obtain maximum forward gain & equal distributed shape of the primary lobe of the Beam.
 

Brainstorm69

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No - careful observation of the r.f. transmission lines feeding each individual element shows they are ALL equal in length - that translates to mean each & every element is fed "in-phase" to obtain maximum forward gain & equal distributed shape of the primary lobe of the Beam.
So help me out here. The Falcon HR manual does say the gun is linearly polarized. It doesn't say whether vertically or horizontally, but regardless, due to the linear polarization, shouldn't holding it either upright or upside down provide the same radar signal strength vs turning it sideways which would change the radar signal strength? Or is there something I'm missing here due to the patch array antenna?
 

winterbrew

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So help me out here. The Falcon HR manual does say the gun is linearly polarized. It doesn't say whether vertically or horizontally, but regardless, due to the linear polarization, shouldn't holding it either upright or upside down provide the same radar signal strength vs turning it sideways which would change the radar signal strength? Or is there something I'm missing here due to the patch array antenna?

Not sure about the HR, but the RP-1 has the same patch antenna (same FCC ID), and the manual has this note

1586097191328.png

The aim, site notch is at the top of my antennas
 

hiddencam

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Non-expert interpretation: It looks like a ganster style configuration would "create" 12 degrees vertical beam "height:, and ~9.5 degrees horizontal beam "width". If that's correct, then detection range would suffer.

The shape of each "part" of that Microstrip Antenna is rectangular.
Screenshot 2020-04-05 at 10.49.22 AM.png


When held normally (non-gansta style):
Screenshot 2020-04-05 at 10.16.50 AM.png

Normal plotted fields of "a" rectangular microstrip antenna (angular measurements may be off??):
normal.jpg


Gangsta-style configuration:
side.png


Gangsta style plotted:
RotatePhoto_5-4-2020_10-54-56 - Edited.png


 

Jon at Radenso

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I'm pretty sure I remember signal strength bring reduced when it's on its side, I can test that in a couple hours or so with measures signal strength.
 

DrHow

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“My setup on this course, the way Falcon was positioned on dash and terrain limited you could not get a speed reading from passing cars. However I wanted to see how detector reacted. Made a quick run the same settings as the other day”

OP, thank you for mentioning this ^^. And showing what receive settings you were running on the HR. while running HR in local/suburban settings, I notice running in setting 1 could make the most sense for LEO action. When turned up higher, it gets harder and harder to figure out which vehicle it is targeting. Have to almost “aim” it like a laser gun for vehicles farther down the path. even so, it is harder to ID which vehicle in traffic it is seeing. Takes a good eye. For Ambush running, keeping it at 1 Makes it easier to pick the close traffic without worry of picking up larger vehicle down range instead of up close. Overall, makes it easy to point shoot closer up, and get the accurate reading on single or multiple vehicles with the HR. I wonder how LEO are trained to use the HR in different distance ambush settings.


@InsipidMonkey points are valid. @Brainstorm69 suggestion to rerun the test with HR vertical is valid. Also, I suggest that wherever you set up would be a legit LEO setting. Thst they would likely use to issue tickets. Real world location testing is the key to measure actual performance against the LEO foe. If you design a tricky LEO legit example, should not be more off axis than they would do. You or anyone should test actual real world target acquisition in the design (by monitoring traffic for at least 30 minutes, gauging how different vehicles are picked up in target zone compared to your test vehicle). Then compare the range outside the kill real life kill zone. These will help find the likely ability to avoid a ticket (In a given ambush design).

Last time I did a test (with GEN2) against the HR, I had @GTO with me. We had to first examine how the HR would be used in the test course design we had set up. I/we targeted constant traffic vehicles 50min+ before we ran the test Then we talked live during the test (he ran the HR) as I approached (or receded) from the kill zone. We were Looking for how a typical I/O cop might operate in a constant moderate traffic trap (typical logic or full logic setting). Seeing how the I/O responded with the GEN2 outside the kill zone... Also see how long the overall range was to the kill zone in a C/O test for this trap design. The course I designed had 9 concentrated door openers that the GEN2 had to deal with. I also marked BSM vehicles, chased them down, and had them in front or behind me as I hit the real world kill zone. The GEN2 had to deal with all this at the same time as the HR based trap. No matter what “mode” heading into the kill zone, it never failed to give excellent warnings. We had one questionable receding from kill zone (going away) G2 result we were able to duplicate (Full Logic mode). our test is published on RDF in another area.

Our goal at that time was more towards the “bench test quick trigger” chatter. We were seeking to prove or disprove the bench test as effective for real world. For the G2, IMO it is not NOT. Reaction time was Instant on that street test. We created a tough LEO like real world design to Compare. A side benefit showed how effective the G2 was against the HR overall.

Thanks for the testing.
 
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RedRocket

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I'm pretty sure I remember signal strength bring reduced when it's on its side, I can test that in a couple hours or so with measures signal strength.
Non-expert interpretation: It looks like a ganster style configuration would "create" 12 degrees vertical beam "height:, and ~9.5 degrees horizontal beam "width". If that's correct, then detection range would suffer.

The shape of each "part" of that Microstrip Antenna is rectangular.
View attachment 144035
The Patch elements were deliberately designed rectangular (for beam shape forming of Main lobe in upright held position) rather than the traditional perfect "square" of a resonant 1 wavelength antenna.
I took mine out this morning for some Testing on a 4800ft arrow straight rural road. There is significant difference in range, upright & upside-down gives maximum range to ~3800ft to single approaching/receding vehicles before audio gets very noisy just before return signal loss !
Gangsta' style has significant range loss of ~35-40%, whether @ 90 degrees left or right.

There are minor beam Lobes as shown in @hiddencam polar plots(at least 2 on either side of Main beam) above Post. I found these by shooting 20-25 degrees off-axis into a large grass only field (to minimize reflections) & couldn't get a speed reading until car was very close @ 300-350ft.

Next I will go to my 5.5mi long range Test site - I doubt my R7 or RedLine-"O" will get even a weak sniff of radar shooting Gangsta style.

btw, hc - w/ 64 elements the Main lobe is far narrower than the pictorial polar plots in your Post. With so many elements in that Phased Array, I'd estimate the beamwidth to be close to a typical Horn antenna + the same gain factor,too.
 
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croup

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Will be uploading all videos very shortly with the gun non gangsta style.....Re did test this morning only one run each all modes....Falcon was positioned vertically upside down on dash as @Brainstorm69 suggested....

First upload will be under video I posted yesterday of what I was seeing with the gun in G style...

It made a difference in L mode but not that big of difference....Enough I would have had a save...Still I will never run the Gen 2 in L mode...

More than likely it would have made a difference in other modes if the course (GR Course) was not limited....But it is an exact scenario that is used by local LEO's so the info is very useful to me....

I have more thoughts and will update my comments tomorrow....Wanted to get the videos posted today....

Thanks for all the input....
Post automatically merged:

OP has been updated with all videos
 
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Brainstorm69

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Non-expert interpretation: It looks like a ganster style configuration would "create" 12 degrees vertical beam "height:, and ~9.5 degrees horizontal beam "width". If that's correct, then detection range would suffer.

The shape of each "part" of that Microstrip Antenna is rectangular.
View attachment 144035

When held normally (non-gansta style):
View attachment 144031
Normal plotted fields of "a" rectangular microstrip antenna (angular measurements may be off??):
View attachment 144030

Gangsta-style configuration:
View attachment 144032

Gangsta style plotted:
View attachment 144036

I don't think it's a matter of the lobe shape, etc. (at least not totally). I think it's more a matter of the plane (horizontal vs. vertical) in which the the waves travel. At least if I am reading @Nine_C1's very informative post from ER back in the day correctly, and if there is nothing about the patch array antenna that makes it different. But if I am wrong (I'm certainly no expert), someone please correct me.

 
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