E15 Ethanol

[angrypenguin]

Just would like to add in case I have added some fear to some people's ownership experiences with DI engines.

There are a few different OEM approaches to this DI issue.

1) Ford/Lincoln have now abandoned this on their (3.7L IIRC) engine. I was looking at the Lincoln Continental lately, and was surprised to learn that Ford/Lincoln have ditched DI altogether on the 3.7L engine available on US Continentals, but not Canadian ones.

2) Lexus has the D4S system. It uses both port and direct injection. At high load = DI, at partial loads = PFI (port fuel injection). Lexus has patented this system which makes it hard for other OEMs to use this dual injection system, allegedly. That said, Lexus fuel economy blows because of this system (PFI = crap.)

3) Mercedes doesn't seem to suffer from excessive carbon buildup. MB started DI with their M276 engine which uses one air/oil separator on the V6 and 2 separate ones on the V8. There is a low and high impact oil separator. There are no systemic reports of DI engine woes.

4) Audi's 6 cyclinder TSI engine doesn't seem to suffer from this, but that engine was then subject to two separate class action lawsuits -unrelated to carbon/DI....the 4.0TSI engine seems to still suffer from this although it has a pretty elaborate air/oil separator. That said I remain hopeful that the next mass 6 cylinder engine (EA839) will keep the carbon issue at bay. I was impressed at how they designed the air/oil separator, and since the design of said separator is similar to the 3.0 TSI engine that seemed to deal with that issue well, I remain hopeful.

All this to say, that my experience with DI engines was what it was, and I bought my current Mercedes because it was the last year that it was not a DI engine. Now in 2018 I am forced to look at what car I want next, and they are ALL DI engines. I'm just now more careful to figure out what DI engines do not suffer from systemic carbon buildup problems and what the engines feature when it comes to air/oil separators. I don't want to bore people here, but it's neat to see how different OEMs are addressing this issue. Some have lowered combustion temperatures, some have added certain metals to the intake valves (to their detriment in some cases). All this to say - if you are a car lover like me, just do your research. Buying DI doesn't always mean =hell, but in my research, the Koreans (Hyundai/Genesis) and the Americans (GM/Ford) haven't addressed this well enough. That said, please take my last comments here about the Koreans/Americans with a massive grain of salt. I have not researched this as well as Audi/Mercedes.

I know BMW has struggled with this even with engine designs as of late, with the exception of the engines made in the last 2 years for the BMW 5 and 7 series as that was what I have researched in recent months.

 

[ICULookin]

Pardon my very stupid question here, but I've been all over the US, and this is news to me in my times where I've had to fill up rental cars.

I am inferring based on posts above mine that your price for gas for ethanol laden fuel is less than regular fuel? What rock have I been living under or have I just been drunk out of my mind when filling up gas? (this last part is a joke and is a "hyperbole".)

I have never recalled a different price for 100% gas vs ethanol blended fuel? Am I missing something here?

I live here in ATL, GA and there certainly IS a price difference in the two gases. Eth is cheaper than 100% gas. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[schissler]

I am well aware of the various GM DI engines

Are you aware of how Direct Injection in general works? Because No matter what fuel you use, the way it's designed, it will always have carbon build up issues especially when combined with FI.

I don't know where all this stuff about it ruining engines comes from. It's hogwash.

Agreed. Nothing wrong with Ethanol other than crap fuel economy.

E85 is great for making HP @ the dyno.

 

[angrypenguin]

Are you aware of how Direct Injection in general works? Because No matter what fuel you use, the way it's designed, it will always have carbon build up issues especially when combined with FI.

Yes, if it wasn't painfully blatant that I do based on my posts already...

1) Fuel with PEA as an additive may help mitigate carbon buildup for reasons I have already mentioned. Shell Nitrogen and Chevron Techron come to mind. Before you go at me like every single internet person who thinks they understand DI/FI, the technical explanation is explained upthread already.

2) There is a steady state that is achieved with some engines with carbon buildup such that it doesn't cause an increased degregation of engine performance.

The main issue with carbon buildup is because of the oil that passes through back again for combustion. Some car makers have developed solid air/oil separators, and in the case of MB and Audi, now have a dual stage system.

With DI, will there always be carbon buildup on the intake valves? Sure, yes, but is it always going to pose a problem? No. Again, I've written on this topic at length upthread. Have a look

 

[kyle13]

All I have to say is, I hope e85 pumps start popping up more! I usually run 91 octane here in SoCal but when I’m looking for some power I mix 3 gallons of e85 with 91 and love feeling the computer adjust over to different timing tables and the boost build faster and higher! Sure burns quicker though lol


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[schissler]

1) Fuel with PEA as an additive may help mitigate carbon buildup for reasons I have already mentioned. Shell Nitrogen and Chevron Techron come to mind. Before you go at me like every single internet person who thinks they understand DI/FI, the technical explanation is explained upthread already.

2) There is a steady state that is achieved with some engines with carbon buildup such that it doesn't cause an increased degregation of engine performance.

The main issue with carbon buildup is because of the oil that passes through back again for combustion. Some car makers have developed solid air/oil separators, and in the case of MB and Audi, now have a dual stage system.

With DI, will there always be carbon buildup on the intake valves? Sure, yes, but is it always going to pose a problem? No. Again, I've written on this topic at length upthread. Have a look

1)Internet expert? Nah, I've been rebuilding engines as a hobby since I was 18. I've blown up and rebuilt more motors than I care to admit. I fully understand how they work, I don't need a technical article to figure that out lol

2) What does oil have to do with Ethanol in fuel? (The main topic that I responded to?) Nothing. Like I said, by design, Direct Injection will always have carbon build up. Oil/Fuel separaters have been out for decades, that's nothing new.

 

[TXLe]

Ethanol is the bane of my lawn equipment. I make my own ethanol free fuel now by mixing water and siphoning the gas out after the layers seperate.

Theee are no ethanol free gas stations I've found in the DFW area. Even the boat dock stations has ethanol now.

 

[angrypenguin]

1)Internet expert? Nah, I've been rebuilding engines as a hobby since I was 18. I've blown up and rebuilt more motors than I care to admit. I fully understand how they work, I don't need a technical article to figure that out lol

2) What does oil have to do with Ethanol in fuel? (The main topic that I responded to?) Nothing. Like I said, by design, Direct Injection will always have carbon build up. Oil/Fuel separaters have been out for decades, that's nothing new.

All of your questions have been discussed en masse up thread.

To tie this back to ethanol, but the main issue is increased fuel dilution of engine oil due to its penchance with water.

 

[Awgd8]

To lessen engine carbon buildup in DI system, try to use a lower NOACK value engine oil such as Amsoil.

 

[angrypenguin]

To lessen engine carbon buildup in DI system, try to use a lower NOACK value engine oil such as Amsoil.

Or a lower SAPS oil.