Escort Max 360c Introduction at SEMA

FWGuy

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The Cedar sales guy was a bit cringey describing the Max family, but this does look like an improvement over the Max360.

"We have specific firmware that can go in here, not only because of added bandwidth that wifi downloading gives us over bluetooth, but also because we tweaked some of the processing that goes on in here" - Eh, OK, maybe they rev'ed the hardware design, but that wireless bandwidth stuff leading to better firmware is pure BS.

Here's what I'm wondering. Are Escort's firmware developers better than their mobile app developers? Escort Live on both iOS and Android have had plenty of road bumps and lack of progress. Can their firmware developers do a better job? They added a wifi chip, had to write a TCP/IP stack, HTTP tools, and logic for Escort Live and firmware updates on the RD, while neither their firmware nor mobile app developers have a great track record. On mobile at least the network stack and tools are already there for you... but maybe you can license these tool sets for common chipset and devices these days? Any thoughts @FWGuy ?

Escort Live, RD firmware, Defender Database updates, are all familiar. VeilGuy is hinting that other network services will be coming, I wonder what else there could be down the pipeline?

I don't think band segmentation is going to transform the M6 and justify a $700 price from a performance stand point, but at least Escort is still developing their products and appears to be listening to their customers when it comes to filtering, and is attempting to lead the market in technologies consumers are familiar with even if they're of questionable worth at the moment.

Their wireless "shifters" sound like they're attempting to solve one of the major hurdles to purchasers, hopefully they add a timeout and educate their customers on JTK before they're banned everywhere...
Mike -

You're making a pretty insightful comment.

First - sorry for not responding sooner. I don't get emails when someone uses the @ sign any more. That started with the website migration and I've checked all my settings. I have no idea why I don't get emails anymore. There's no setting that says "emails in response to @ sign" so I don't know what to do.

Anyway, I only see @FWGuy when I'm reading a post these days.

So, onto what you mentioned - firmware developers and Andriod/iPhone developers are two different breeds. Much like GUI developers are a different breed than fw guys.

Nevertheless, it'd be really rare for someone (especially a fw developer) to have to write a TCPIP stack these days. In every case I've seen, the chip vendor provides the TCPIP firmware free of charge if you're using their chips in your product. And of course, the vendor takes some precautions so that their TCPIP ( or Bluetooth or WiFi or ZigBee) stack can only be used with their chips.

If you look closely at pictures of the Max360 circuit board, you'll notice that the Bluetooth portion is really a small circuit board mounted on the larger Max360 "motherboard" (mainboard). This is because Escort is buying what's called a "module" from a vendor. The module performs the Bluetooth functionality but also hides the Bluetooth details behind a simple serial interface. So the Escort firmware people have commands like "pair" and "send/receive data" that they use to deal with the Bluetooth interface.

Same (probably) with WiFi. A number of vendors sell a packaged solution (what I'm calling a "module") so that the people who want to use WiFi don't need to know the nitty-gritty details.

It's a little more expensive hardware-wise to purchase one of these modules rather than just a chip but it saves a lot of cost in terms of fw development time. The fw developer doesn't need to come up to speed on Bluetooth/WiFi'/whatever and then write and debug code. This saves a lot of time and cost.

One thing that matters, besides writing and testing fw is time to market. If the fw guys had to learn the details of Bluetooth or WiFi, the learning curve would be months long. Most companies don't have that kind of time so the company is willing to take a small hit to the cost of the hardware to save the time in development.

As for why Escort would go to WiFi - I don't know. WiFi is certainly faster than Bluetooth but Bluetooth seemed to be fine for EL. And as far as being connected to the internet 24-7, I guess that's valuable for alerts but other than that, why do we need to be connected 24-7 - for the fw updates that come out every 2 or 3 years?

I never cared to use my phone with my detector and maybe I'm not the only one who felt that way. So the WiFi is a step in the right direction but it doesn't make me want to upgrade.

Honestly, I'm hoping Uniden fixes their DB and laser detector on their next product.

Dan

--- Post updated ---

"Again. "Segs" do not do anything on a MAX digital detector other than mute alerts. They are NOT for performance gains. Disabling the entire Ka band on a MAX will not increase X and K performance."
When segmenting results in not scanning, you'll get a performance increase. When segmenting means the processor just isn't reporting that segment, there's no performance increase.

Not scanning is what makes a detector faster. Reporting (or not) on what's been scanned isn't going to save much time.

Dan
 

westwind77

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I sold my 360 today and ordered a 360c today to try out. Be hard to pull down my R3 for a month but I will give it a shot.
Great time to sell....before most people know about the 'new' product! Looking forward to hearing your experiences with the new 'toy', enjoy!
 

InsipidMonkey

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I wonder how having a 2.4GHz wireless radio a few centimeters from a two sensitive radar horns will affect detection? I guess we've had Bluetooth in detectors for some time with no ill effects (operating around the same frequencies, but at a much lower power level and bandwidth).

Is the WiFi meant to be an always-on connection, or does the WiFi radio only get powered up when updating?
 

FWGuy

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If Uniden ever creates a dual Antenna R3 with arrows,i gurantee it would be less than $580.00 still.
As a Uniden tester, do you have advance info about future pricing :)

Dan

--- Post updated ---

Originally Uniden had planned to have a dual antenna at the $499.95 point and I had seen the original prototype and I liked it but they did not like the display and the performance was not where they wanted it to be. They are still working on different prototypes and they will eventually release one but you are correct it will not be a $700 detector.
I don't know if I expect an answer but I am hoping for one. Will the DB and laser detector be better than in the R series?

If you say yes, my tail will be wagging for the next week......

Dan
 

patscogs

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The videos and content will all be back up tomorrow. Just a timing thing. :)

If you guys have specific questions about the Max 360c, let me know. I'm going to do a followup interview/discussion with Escort based on what you guys are wondering about and want to know. I'm not sure if it'll be shot here at the show or after the show is done since it depends on how quickly we're able to hear back from Escort's engineers, but yeah. What all are you guys wondering about most?
If you have the opportunity can you ask 1. why they created this detector? what lead to the development? - for example, we have pages of requests on requests asking Uniden for this and that but I've never read anyone ask to have WIFI integrated into the detector. So, where did the idea come from and why is necessary/better? 2. Getting specific here but, say you initially connect your 360c to optimum online hot spots (which are free hot spots around town that your phone will connect to intermittently while driving or obviously when in range of any optimum router, to explain for those without optimum) will the detector connect to those hot spots along your route while you drive? And, how will it affect performance? Will hot spots along the route update quick enough that it seems like the RD is connected to WIFI and Escort Live? Or, will those hot spot have an inconsequential effect? Or, possibly negative effect?

I know you have to be cordial and walk the tight rope sort to speak - but I really want to get to the bottom of this... you're very good at putting things in a good light Vortex so maybe you can ask these questions in an non-adversarial way better than I could - but still, I'm baffled by the choice to implement WIFI and how it's going to help performance
 
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FWGuy

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We had talked about this beforehand. They understand that to many people, especially enthusiasts, long range performance is the most important thing. At the same time, for the everyday driver and average consumer, having "enough" range to alert to a ticket in most real world situations along with a detector that stays very quiet unless the alert is real plus being easy to use is the balance they're looking for. I can't say that I disagree with them on this point. Even though it has less range than the R3, that doesn't mean it becomes useless or anything (but I think it does make it a bit tougher to justify the higher price).

Bring it on!!
I agree. Unfortunately, I am in the "enough range to save while being quiet other times" camp. I am here because I'm really interested in how the detectors work. I really don't need 2 mile range where I live.

But I did enjoy it when I ran the R3 for almost a month :)

Dan
 

maxka

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It's like Escort is selling their testing equipment to the public they keep coming out with so many damn models. Just focus on one and make it good. I don't get Escort.
 

timark251

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Another example of the disfunction over at Escort: http://escortradarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16845

A user asking about not receiving the extended service plan sticker with their EX.

TBNTX tells him to wait a few days as it was probably mailed separately.

ER said to contact them if he didn't receive the sticker in a few days.

User contacts ER after not receiving the sticker.

ER then said they were mistaken and no longer send ESP stickers.

Another user chimes in and asks when they stopped doing that, as they received the ESP sticker with their EX.

Escort's reply:

View attachment 63421
EscortRadar View attachment 63422
Official Escort Rep

Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 14,960

View attachment 63423
I am not sure, I just know that we do not do it now.
eh, that's Larry response to my question. Come on buddy, how do you not know? You did in July.
20171101_171940.jpg


--- Post updated ---

@PointerCone so the new redline ex mutes or segs? i thought it was digital, but if i'm reading your statement right either i misunderstood and it just mutes the k and ka or it's analog like the original.
EX is analog. Just like the O.
 

LeftLaneInPA

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I'm never paying 7 bills for a WS mount RD. I don't care if it makes coffee and offers oral favors.
Max 360c: "maymambmamed"
You: "Huh?"
Max 360c: "maymambmamed!"
You: "What?"
Max 360c: (gasp, spit) "I said 'K-band ahead!'"
 

Driver66

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Brainstorm69

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The videos and content will all be back up tomorrow. Just a timing thing. :)

If you guys have specific questions about the Max 360c, let me know. I'm going to do a followup interview/discussion with Escort based on what you guys are wondering about and want to know. I'm not sure if it'll be shot here at the show or after the show is done since it depends on how quickly we're able to hear back from Escort's engineers, but yeah. What all are you guys wondering about most?
Actually, I have a specific question about whether Escort intends to provide any of the "new" features of the Max 360c to the Max 360. While Escort seems to intimate (which has always been their MO - say something vague that doesn't really answer the question and move on) that the 360c has some new hardware besides the wifi chip (and maybe it does, or more likely it doesn't), it seems like certain features (e.g., band segmentation for Ka and K bands and better arrow logic) could be added to the "old" Max 360 through a fw update for their existing customers. Does Escort have any intention of trickling down any features that can be to the older Max 360s? Or, as has been Escort's MO in the past (and as I expect is the case here), have we seen the last of any updates to the Max 360, and one has to buy the latest and greatest to get any of the new features. Also, ask them with the announcement of the Max 360c, how soon can we expect to see them discontinue the Max 360.

BTW, has Escort released the promised fw update for the Max and Max II yet? Last I heard, the answer was still "no." It wouldn't surprise me to see that continue to be pushed to the side as Escort will undoubtedly have some bugs to fix in the Max 360c's fw once they are in the field.
 
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Magua

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Mike -

As for why Escort would go to WiFi - I don't know. WiFi is certainly faster than Bluetooth but Bluetooth seemed to be fine for EL. And as far as being connected to the internet 24-7, I guess that's valuable for alerts but other than that, why do we need to be connected 24-7 - for the fw updates that come out every 2 or 3 years?

Dan

I have thought about the wifi addition also. It could be it's needed for the wireless jammers range.

My hope it will be used for collecting real world performance data. Escort could collect data and send it through wifi to a server that could use machine learning to build false alarm signature files that could be pushed back out to the detectors. That would redefine the product category and make it worth $700.

I personally like evolutionary design changes. Less debugging, more refining the product. A few PCB board layout changes with the same components can have a large effect on noise and sensitivity.
 

PointerCone

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I have thought about the wifi addition also. It could be it's needed for the wireless jammers range.

My hope it will be used for collecting real world performance data. Escort could collect data and send it through wifi to a server that could use machine learning to build false alarm signature files that could be pushed back out to the detectors. That would redefine the product category and make it worth $700.

I personally like evolutionary design changes. Less debugging, more refining the product. A few PCB board layout changes with the same components can have a large effect on noise and sensitivity.
@Magua why is it needed?? Wireless jammers are nothing new. ALF has had them for 4 years now and I own a set. ( note it's ALF and not ALP ). They work off an in cabin controller and for a cheap Chinese made product, they work very well as far as the wireless portion is concerned. Wireless is not everything it's cracked up to be and here's why: except for the fact you don't have to go through firewall, you still need a controller or bridge box in the engine bay out front for front and rear heads. The heads still require you go through engine bay and also through rear of car for power. BT can accomplish the same thing as wireless for both alerts and updates. Most cars do not have wifi and even though I have it through OnStar, I rarely if ever use it except to start the diesel remotely when it's cold. Heck, you don't even need wireless for that. A 150' remote works too. Plus, wifi requires a separate plan and it's not cheap for vehicles. My iPad with wifi accomplishes the same as a hot spot and so do many phones.

As to building signature files being updated. ER could do that with stored K band falses when you update your RD. To me ( currently) wifi is a solution in search of a problem. More complexity, more cost, more buy-in. Where's the benefit??
 
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Choose Life

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I personally like evolutionary design changes. Less debugging, more refining the product. A few PCB board layout changes with the same components can have a large effect on noise and sensitivity
And absolutely none of that is happening with the 360c
 

The Only Sarge

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I wonder how many channels Escort is providing us w/ within the 2.4Ghz band? Lot of devices use that band.
God forbid they use "auto" channel selection.
 

HotRodEV

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I'm curious as to whether the firmware updates are going to be automatic or whether the user will control when/if the update happens.

It would be rough if a new firmware became available and the detector automatically updated in the middle of a road-trip.

This would be especially painful if the update caused more problems than it solved (nah, that CAN'T happen)...
 
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The Only Sarge

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I am concerned about interference in the 2.4ghz range.
Car alarms uses it.
Microwave Towers (Think cell phone/communications) uses it.
Wireless video/microphones use it.
On and on and on.
And as HotRodEV brings up a great point......
One of the things I always hated about Microsoft is their "update" crammed down your throat right in the middle of a presentation. Linux Mint allows you to update when/what you wish to update.
@Vortex
What channels are Escort going to use in the 2.4Ghz spectrum.
Can we manually select the channels.
What is their update policy?
 
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PointerCone

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I am concerned about interference in the 2.4ghz range.
Car alarms uses it.
Microwave Towers (Think cell phone/communications) uses it.
Wireless video/microphones use it.
On and on and on.
And as HotRodEV brings up a great point......
One of the things I always hated about Microsoft is their "update" crammed down your throat right in the middle of a presentation. Linux Mint allows you to update when/what you wish to update.
@Vortex
What channels are Escort going to use in the 2.4Ghz spectrum.
Can we manually select the channels.
What is their update policy
?
Again, a solution in search of a problem. As one member eloquently put it, " I don't recall wifi being on the list of items we want for an RD"
 

leesrt

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The primary reason Escort went to wifi is to use the backdoor to make EL relevant again. There are not enough users that actually tie into EL to make it anything that resembles trustworthy let alone usable. They are hoping this will encourage people to use it more.
 

Dukes

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The primary reason Escort went to wifi is to use the backdoor to make EL relevant again. There are not enough users that actually tie into EL to make it anything that resembles trustworthy let alone usable. They are hoping this will encourage people to use it more.
That is a good point and likely very true. But I suspect this new feature won't produce enough new EL users to make it relevant again. They should have teamed up with Waze instead.
 

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