Tests that show how much installing behind a grill impacts performance

Vortex

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Have you guys ever seen any tests that specifically show how much performance drops if you install a remote RD behind a grill, a body panel whether it's flat or curved, metallic or plastic, etc.? Nine has done some awesome stuff showing us why the performance would drop and I'm curious to see how much of an impact people would notice in practice behind various different popular parts of a vehicle.
 

Deft

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Could be useful info for those folks living in RD banned areas.

One of my cars has a plastic front bumper and I always wondered how it would absorb/refract/reflect.
 

STS-134

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I've got my STiR+ behind my plastic bumper (not to hide it, just because it was most convenient to put it there). I guess someday I can go out to OpenRoad's stew zone and test it against the known sensitivity of multiple Redlines in the same area.
 

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I figure it would have an impact but shouldn't be too bad if behind plastic. If the bumper is metal then that's another story
 

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Yeah basically what I have in mind is to have some concrete results to point people towards when we discuss placement options. "Take a look at how much performance drops if you install behind the grill. I know it looks like it has a clear view to the outside world through the slats, but look how much performance drops when you do that. If you install behind a flat non-metallic body panel or ideally out in the open, look how much of a performance benefit you'll see."

It'd be helpful for installers, for people considering the different installation options on their own vehicles, and for the general education of everyone.

It's go hand in hand with the general recommendations provided by forum members, by the manufacturers, and so forth.

I could see it being a bit of a PITA to pull off a test since it's not a two second job to move the antenna around behind the front bumper and grill and all, but if someone has the ability to perform such a test, it'd be great to see the results from.
 

TurboDriver

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Do you think there could be different results for different gun freqs, like K vs Ka? I have also been wondering the effects.

I have been thinking of doing a temperary RedLin Remote install for the few times I travel to "terrible" places. I only have a K band Bushnell but will see if I can conjour up a "backyard" test in the next couple days.
 
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nano

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I did some tests with the VIP and published them here.
A honeycomb grill will decrease range by approx. 50% while there is negligible decrease behind a flat bumper.

You also replied in that thread. :D
 

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I did some tests with the VIP and published them here.
A honeycomb grill will decrease range by approx. 50% while there is negligible decrease behind a flat bumper.

You also replied in that thread. :D

lol sweet. My memory sucks. :D Got link? ;)
 

poop

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My STi-R+ head is behind a flat piece of plastic at the same height as the plate. Range is awesome, I posted a video several weeks back showing 4.5 minutes of detection at 100 km/h each headed in the opposite direction.

Here: https://www.rdforum.org/showpost.php?p=617918
 
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PointerCone

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Yeah basically what I have in mind is to have some concrete results to point people towards when we discuss placement options. "Take a look at how much performance drops if you install behind the grill. I know it looks like it has a clear view to the outside world through the slats, but look how much performance drops when you do that. If you install behind a flat non-metallic body panel or ideally out in the open, look how much of a performance benefit you'll see."

It'd be helpful for installers, for people considering the different installation options on their own vehicles, and for the general education of everyone.

It's go hand in hand with the general recommendations provided by forum members, by the manufacturers, and so forth.

I could see it being a bit of a PITA to pull off a test since it's not a two second job to move the antenna around behind the front bumper and grill and all, but if someone has the ability to perform such a test, it'd be great to see the results from.


A few months back, I took my Ci antenna out from behind the front splitter and the difference was dramatic and I posted Picts of the old and new install. Point is, the original install on the stang sucked. It is my belief that one of the reasons the Stinger has done so well versus prior tests in EU is that we've been running them in WS or out in front ( open) like Vortex or Kookm units. Even @jdong hint us in the WS. NIn our MWTG tests, the Stinger did not do near as well when " properly" mounted behind something. Put the Stinger behind something like a bumper and/ or grill and the results won't be so dramatic. Attenuation can and does occur behind glass, plastic or composites.


Personally, I'd love to see Vortex temporarily remount that front Miata patch behind the bumper and see how it " really" does.
---------- Post added at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 PM ----------

I did some tests with the VIP and published them here.
A honeycomb grill will decrease range by approx. 50% while there is negligible decrease behind a flat bumper.

You also replied in that thread. :D


Mnbadgers rear patch performed excellently behind a flat Charger rear bumper. Not so well in front. Something is indeed going on.
 
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Edwv30

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But, they tested the Stinger against a Redline...same M3 as the remote mounts and the Stinger still kicked a$$. I fail to see where this is going? :confused:

I would have an issue if they tested a WS mounted Stinger against a properly mounted CI, etc.. That is not what happened here.
 
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abrown3mtg

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My STi-R+ head is behind a flat piece of plastic at the same height as the plate. Range is awesome, I posted a video several weeks back showing 4.5 minutes of detection at 100 km/h each headed in the opposite direction.

Here: https://www.rdforum.org/showpost.php?p=617918

Someday, I will "earn my stripes" and gain the access to all the great and really educational/fun videos! I can't wait!!!

Also this is a great post! I can't wait to see the results. I cut through my Mercedes grill for the Antenna, and both shifters. It would have been much more stealth and looked better had I simply run it behind the plastic cover and super easy to boot. Perhaps when i do my laser shifter test it would be worthwhile to move the radar head down behind the bumper cover... it would not be TOO much work, assuming the generous forum member that agreed to test/explore the zr4's on my car with me vs a pl3.... I know he has radar too..maybe a 2 for one to contribute to the site and this discussion!
 
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mrkookm

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But, they tested the Stinger against a Redline...same M3 as the remote mounts and the Stinger still kicked a$$. I fail to see where this is going? :confused:

I would have an issue if they tested a WS mounted Stinger against a properly mounted CI, etc.. That is not what happened here.

It's called trying to find a reason to make Stinger not look like the awesome detector it is :) I also think it's also being hinted that because the RL was behind the WS it was affected because of the attenuation :)

Listen, it doesn't matter how well the Stinger does or the strides it's making. There are those that will always find a reason. Now if the Stinger performed poorly then that's a whole different matter! Everyone would jump in to make it known how poorly the Stinger did and make it clear how of an expensive junk it is! I think deep down it burns them to know that it truly is an excellent platform even as they're saying it is.

If there's a remote behind the bumper test, the Stinger will still do very well when being compared with a similarly installed Escort remote all things being equal. What would be more awesome is having the Bel & Escort units be 'fair' and enable RDR, TSR GPS filtering to make it more similar to a Stinger config and really show how crappy their performance really is.

Everyone fails to see how technologically advanced the Stinger is it has all the features to be quiet (BSM filtering, Falselisting, Dynamic sensitivity and other tech not made known) active and still is able to give excellent detection. All of which they'v been asking for, but no, they make it clear how expensive the Stinger is. Yet if you look at the majority of the people running with the 'Stinger cost factor' they have various flavors of Escort detectors (and jammers) which runs the either same, close or more than a Stinger. It begs to wonder if they are buying these detectors or getting it for free and naturally biased towards anything else? I know of one particular person who won a Mustang from Escort a while back so naturally it doesn't matter what's out there he'll always have a soft spot towards Escort. Shit, guys becomes fans for life for a detector, a Mustang! Wouldn't you if you won a car from a manufacturer?


I look forward to a remote test! I so wish I didn't sell my StiRO.




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PointerCone

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It's called trying to find a reason to make Stinger not look like the awesome detector it is :) I also think it's also being hinted that because the RL was behind the WS it was affected because of the attenuation :)

Listen, it doesn't matter how well the Stinger does or the strides it's making. There are those that will always find a reason. Now if the Stinger performed poorly then that's a whole different matter! Everyone would jump in to make it known how poorly the Stinger did and make it clear how of an expensive junk it is! I think deep down it burns them to know that it truly is an excellent platform even as they're saying it is.

If there's a remote behind the bumper test, the Stinger will still do very well when being compared with a similarly installed Escort remote all things being equal. What would be more awesome is having the Bel & Escort units be 'fair' and enable RDR, TSR GPS filtering to make it more similar to a Stinger config and really show how crappy their performance really is.

Everyone fails to see how technologically advanced the Stinger is it has all the features to be quiet (BSM filtering, Falselisting, Dynamic sensitivity and other tech not made known) active and still is able to give excellent detection. All of which they'v been asking for, but no, they make it clear how expensive the Stinger is. Yet if you look at the majority of the people running with the 'Stinger cost factor' they have various flavors of Escort detectors (and jammers) which runs the either same, close or more than a Stinger. It begs to wonder if they are buying these detectors or getting it for free and naturally biased towards anything else? I know of one particular person who won a Mustang from Escort a while back so naturally it doesn't matter what's out there he'll always have a soft spot towards Escort. $#@!, guys becomes fans for life for a detector, a Mustang! Wouldn't you if you won a car from a manufacturer?


I look forward to a remote test! I so wish I didn't sell my StiRO.




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not at all @mrkookm. I explained in many previous posts that any detector is going to do better when out in the open, just as any radio receiver does when it's antenna is free to capture a " clean" signal. We've been discussing this for years, even before the Stinger was known in the USA , how signal is attenuated by obstructions. This applies to the StirO and plus as well as any remote. I just want to see the Stinger performs when it's typically mounted, and that's behind a bumper or other fixed part of a car. I have no doubt that a Stinger in the open will beat a StirO in the open. But what about behind a bumper?

Personally, I don't care if it's better than anything else out there and know that it is. Yes, it's the future in RDs and for that, it's to be respected as a new paradigm shift. Still, why not test it behind a bumper and not on the hood of a MBs three pointed star? What's to fear?

the same guy with the Mustang was a huge fan of the V1 and StirO well before said car. In fact, the DD before the BSRDR Redline sported a V1 and later a V1C before said vehicle.

Why the inherent fear of testing the Stinger behind a bumper where it's typically mounted against a Redline windshield mount ( behind glass) ? I don't get it at all?
 
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oldcelt

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Everyone fails to see how technologically advanced the Stinger is it has all the features to be quiet (BSM filtering, Falselisting, Dynamic sensitivity and other tech not made known) active and still is able to give excellent detection. All of which they'v been asking for, but no, they make it clear how expensive the Stinger is. Yet if you look at the majority of the people running with the 'Stinger cost factor' they have various flavors of Escort detectors (and jammers) which runs the either same, close or more than a Stinger. It begs to wonder if they are buying these detectors or getting it for free and naturally biased towards anything else? I know of one particular person who won a Mustang from Escort a while back so naturally it doesn't matter what's out there he'll always have a soft spot towards Escort. $#@!, guys becomes fans for life for a detector, a Mustang! Wouldn't you if you won a car from a manufacturer?

The entire useful function of this forum is to examine & pick apart both the pros and cons of all CM products. Although the technical capabilities of any system are first and foremost, cost is certainly a factor , at least for most. That type of criticism is not limited to Stinger threads, although Stinger being the most expensive option draws more than the usual # of comments on price. The above statement, which is on the cusp of innuendo and accusation, is uncalled for and deserves an apology. If you actually think a certain Mustang owner is a shill for Escort, perhaps you should spend a bit more time reading some of the (many) Max threads. Every mfg/dealer finds relentless criticism of their product(s) aggravating, and all of them are subjected to it here (and also have their defenders)
 
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PointerCone

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The entire useful function of this forum is to examine & pick apart both the pros and cons of all CM products. Although the technical capabilities of any system are first and foremost, cost is certainly a factor , at least for most. That type of criticism is not limited to Stinger threads, although Stinger being the most expensive option draws more than the usual # of comments on price. The above statement, which is on the cusp of innuendo and accusation, is uncalled for and deserves an apology. If you actually think a certain Mustang owner is a shill for Escort, perhaps you should spend a bit more time reading some of the (many) Max threads. Every mfg/dealer finds relentless criticism of their product(s) aggravating, and all of them are subjected to it here (and also have their defenders)


Thanks [MENTION=2690]oldcelt[/MENTION]. , but I've got my big boy pants on ;). The original question in THIS THREAD is How does mounting behind a grill (and bumper as well) affect performance. It's a simple question with a simple answer. We know it does. Now, how much is what takes testing since many remotes have been tested in their " best" configuration, that being in the open. What IF we put the patch or antenna behind something is what [MENTION=2404]Vortex[/MENTION] posed as a question? Now, what if??? Let's test that!!!
 

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I have never in my life, encountered as much drama from men, than I have since joining the ECM community. And that's all I have to say about that. :p
 

STS-134

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If there's a remote behind the bumper test, the Stinger will still do very well when being compared with a similarly installed Escort remote all things being equal. What would be more awesome is having the Bel & Escort units be 'fair' and enable RDR, TSR GPS filtering to make it more similar to a Stinger config and really show how crappy their performance really is.
While a better antenna will perform better out in the open, there are no guarantees that it will interact well with the weird interference patterns generated by honeycomb grills. You might even find that you can do several runs and one antenna wins in some runs, and another antenna wins in other runs. It all depends on where the constructive and destructive interference occurs behind that grill, and where each component of the antenna is in relation to said interference, and how the system responds to situations like this. There are so many variables that you can't say that the Stinger will always beat the Escort remote behind the same grill. The only way to find out is to test.

Everyone fails to see how technologically advanced the Stinger is it has all the features to be quiet (BSM filtering, Falselisting, Dynamic sensitivity and other tech not made known) active and still is able to give excellent detection. All of which they'v been asking for, but no, they make it clear how expensive the Stinger is.
Stinger has a premium product and is charging a premium price for it, there's no doubt about that. But cost does factor into the equation when purchasing CMs for the vast majority of people. Can I criticize Stinger for charging so much? Not really, if I owned the company, I might do the same. But also keep in mind that AL was the only game in town for jamming the DET until recently and wasn't charging an arm and a leg for their product because they wanted to gain market share and recognition. If the price premium of an ALP over a LI is only 20-30%, why is the price premium of a Stinger over a STiR+ more like 100-200%? Is Stinger not interested in gaining market share and recognition in the US over the Belscort remote detectors? There's no right or wrong answer, but it is an interesting question to ask. I've told many people that if in the market for new jammers, ALP was the only way to go and it's a no brainer decision, even if they don't live where DET guns are used. Given that so much time/effort goes into an install and departments can purchase new guns at any time, and the premium of an ALP over any other jammer is so low, it doesn't make sense to buy anything else.

If I were buying a new car right now, I'd probably put a Stinger in it (given that I generally like to buy the most advanced stuff I can so that I can wait as long as possible before upgrading), but given that I only run 34.7 on my RD most of the time, it's not a complete no brainer decision. If however the price premium were 50% or less over the STiR+, it would be an absolute no brainer decision for me.

I have told numerous friends about the Stinger and how it's the best detector you can get, but most of them haven't even considered it seriously because they were turned off by the price.
 
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PointerCone

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I have never in my life, encountered as much drama from men, than I have since joining the ECM community. And that's all I have to say about that. :p

NO drama here [MENTION=90]Salty[/MENTION] . I answered a simple question at to how an "install" of a RD remote is affected by a grill (and /or a bumper). Its really very simple and doesn't bother me a bit since I know for a fact that YES, mounting behind a bumper and/or a grill will indeed affect the reception of microwaves. The term attenuation comes to mind here :

Attenuation is a general term that refers to any reduction in the strength of a signal. Attenuation occurs with any type of signal, whether digital or analog. Sometimes called loss, attenuation is a natural consequence of signal transmission over long distances.

Now, in light of this, I know from personal experience and testing over many years that even glass can attenuate a signal to ANY RD and that includes WS mount and remotes mounted behind glass. NOW, lets look at a grill or a plastic bumper? The million dollar question is NOT if it will be affected, BUT by how much will the signal attenuate behind said grill or bumper. There seems to be some fear that testing a patch antenna behind a bumper and/or grill may or can affect its performance. I contend that it can and does. Since [MENTION=2404]Vortex[/MENTION], whom I admire and respect deeply has a patch in hand, ONLY he can answer the question as to how said patch will be affected by mounting it behind the front bumper (or rear if he'd prefer) of the Miata MX5. I contend it will affect the performance of said unit.

---------- Post added at 01:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 PM ----------

I have told numerous friends about the Stinger and how it's the best detector you can get, but most of them haven't even considered it seriously because they were turned off by the price.

X2 to the 10th power!! Go to any of the forums I visit, including the MB and others (Porsche) and you'll see that the Stinger is indeed highly recommended, BUT when many guys hear the price, they too have many questions about that.(consternation to some). (Some of these guys are my friends who think of nothing in spending $125K or more on a car). Recent case in point. Neighbor 1 gets a 2015 991 TT S for close to $200 K (new car). Other neighbor 2 sports a metallic Blue 2015 ZO-6 (C7 series) with all the performance options. Car # 1 is $200,000, Car # 2 is $105,000 out the door. Neighbors # 1 and 2 debate all the time about the cost/price/performance ratio that each car garners. Car 2 is about 99% of the performance of Car # 1 because Car # 1 has AWD so its qtr mile is a lil better. ON the track, car # 2 has recently been beating the snot in time out of Car # 1 because of the Performance Package and ground effects. So, the ultimate issue is, what did Car # 1 get for his additional $100 K that car # 2 did not offer??
 

mrkookm

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There's waayyy to much typing on my retort to the many blah I see here, so I'll leave it as I mentioned in my previous post which you all missed, i.e., I look forward to a behind the bumper test!

As far as the Mustang winner goes never did I say SHILL, so stop trying to twist this into something other than my point, i.e., said winner perspective to anything other than an Escort will be skewed. Unlike most of you I call it like I see it, so no there will be no apology as it is what it is.





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