Automotive paint companies making paint more IR-reflective

Fireball

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When I have a few minutes and think about it, I continue my search for the edge on picking up the cops before they can pick me up. A way to reduce the range a LIDAR gun can pick me up is one of those things I look for. And, we're boned.


The paint companies are making the primer for automotive paint very IR-visible, and is adding crap to otherwise non-reflective paint in the IR band to make it more reflective. This is more for autonomous driving systems, but it's not going to make things any easier for the rest of us. And apparently, paint color does matter. A deep red apparently reflects less IR than other colors, but none of them have been reflecting enough for autonomous systems to work so they're going to make everything really stand out in the IR bands. Once this stuff becomes standard, the cops might be able to see our cars from 3000ft instead of 1000 to 1500ft.

Sez panel angles also matter, a flat panel returns 75-85 percent of the beamed signal while 30 degrees off flat only returns 5-10 percent of the signal. A 30 degree angle is not great, so building a license plate holder for the front that angles the plate 30 degrees off center would let you see the cop when he shoots the obvious target, then doesn't get enough return to get a reading and has to reset. By the time he shoots you again, you're going PSL. So far as the angled plate, not a damned thing he can do about it since it's both visible and readable from the front. Obviously active countermeasures would be best, but when you're looking for that edge this might be a way. Might even let a plain lidar detector get a save.

Anyway, thought I'd throw this out for discussion, and let folks know that at some point in the very near future cars are going to light up like IR spotlights compared to today's cars, when the cops shoot laser at them.
 
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When I have a few minutes and think about it, I continue my search for the edge on picking up the cops before they can pick me up. A way to reduce the range a LIDAR gun can pick me up is one of those things I look for. And, we're boned.


The paint companies are making the primer for automotive paint very IR-visible, and is adding crap to otherwise non-reflective paint in the IR band to make it more reflective. This is more for autonomous driving systems, but it's not going to make things any easier for the rest of us. And apparently, paint color does matter. A deep red apparently reflects less IR than other colors, but none of them have been reflecting enough for autonomous systems to work so they're going to make everything really stand out in the IR bands. Once this stuff becomes standard, the cops might be able to see our cars from 3000ft instead of 1000 to 1500ft.

Sez panel angles also matter, a flat panel returns 75-85 percent of the beamed signal while 30 degrees off flat only returns 5-10 percent of the signal. A 30 degree angle is not great, so building a license plate holder for the front that angles the plate 30 degrees off center would let you see the cop when he shoots the obvious target, then doesn't get enough return to get a reading and has to reset. By the time he shoots you again, you're going PSL. So far as the angled plate, not a damned thing he can do about it since it's both visible and readable from the front. Obviously active countermeasures would be best, but when you're looking for that edge this might be a way. Might even let a plain lidar detector get a save.

Anyway, thought I'd throw this out for discussion, and let folks know that at some point in the very near future cars are going to light up like IR spotlights compared to today's cars, when the cops shoot laser at them.
I wonder how reflective cars with pointed fronts, (like Corvettes) are. There's not much surface to target that's flat enough for a return signal.
 

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I wonder how reflective cars with pointed fronts, (like Corvettes) are. There's not much surface to target that's flat enough for a return signal.
There was a grey C7 I tested with where I was able to get a return signal off the hood with a DESL, which is about a 70 degree angle my guess. Not to comfortable sharing the details in a public section but i was able to verify I wasn't hitting the front bumper. Idk how recently they've been doing this paint thing, but the guns are sensitive as is, especially newer guns.
 

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There was a grey C7 I tested with where I was able to get a return signal off the hood with a DESL, which is about a 70 degree angle my guess. Not to comfortable sharing the details in a public section but i was able to verify I wasn't hitting the front bumper. Idk how recently they've been doing this paint thing, but the guns are sensitive as is, especially newer guns.
It would likely depend upon your distance to the car on whether you were only hitting hood or not. From a quarter mile away, the beam goes to what, 18 inches wide? That'll also be 18 inches tall, and a 6 foot hood at a roughly 70 degree angle is only going to be (off the top of my head) about 6 to 8 inches tall at most. This means that if you're centered on what part of the hood you see, part of the beam will hit the glass and part will hit the bumper cover and this might be giving you enough of a return. I guess an angled license plate holder won't matter one bit then, since the beam would be hitting all the way around it. You'd need something about 20 inches or larger in diameter AS SEEN FROM THE FRONT with the plate centered, all set at the angle, to have a chance at it mattering.

I don't know how long they've been doing this with the paint either, or if they've even started using it. But, when they do (and with the OEMs, tech firms and gummit pushing for taking control away from the driver they will) it means that cars are going to stand out like Christmas trees in a deep, dark cave compared to what they are now and what's worse, we won't know when they start using it.

If the mods feel this is not something for general consumption I wouldn't complain about it being moved to a higher level board.
 
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sdrawkcaB

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3M’s patented retroreflective plates (which many States use as their standard) won’t have their reflectivity affected by angling them. This is due to the physics of the material they use that makes them reflective. They utilize tens of thousands of micro sized glass spheres. The glass spheres take the light coming in, and shoot it back in the same direction it came from. Since they’re spheres, this effect is good for any angle of attack where you can see even the smallest portion of the plate.
 

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It would likely depend upon your distance to the car on whether you were only hitting hood or not. From a quarter mile away, the beam goes to what, 18 inches wide? That'll also be 18 inches tall, and a 6 foot hood at a roughly 70 degree angle is only going to be (off the top of my head) about 6 to 8 inches tall at most. This means that if you're centered on what part of the hood you see, part of the beam will hit the glass and part will hit the bumper cover and this might be giving you enough of a return. I guess an angled license plate holder won't matter one bit then, since the beam would be hitting all the way around it. You'd need something about 20 inches or larger in diameter AS SEEN FROM THE FRONT with the plate centered, all set at the angle, to have a chance at it mattering.

I don't know how long they've been doing this with the paint either, or if they've even started using it. But, when they do (and with the OEMs, tech firms and gummit pushing for taking control away from the driver they will) it means that cars are going to stand out like Christmas trees in a deep, dark cave compared to what they are now and what's worse, we won't know when they start using it.

If the mods feel this is not something for general consumption I wouldn't complain about it being moved to a higher level board.
About 700ft or less. So the beam isn't tiny but I can tell you for a fact I wasn't on the bumper cover. If I panned up to the windshield, I lost reception since you can't lock on the windshield as far as I know. Maybe if it's tinted?

If this was Intermediate I could disclose it and tbh it's maybe more advanced than that since it has the potential to defeat jammers
 

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3M’s patented retroreflective plates (which many States use as their standard) won’t have their reflectivity affected by angling them. This is due to the physics of the material they use that makes them reflective. They utilize tens of thousands of micro sized glass spheres. The glass spheres take the light coming in, and shoot it back in the same direction it came from. Since they’re spheres, this effect is good for any angle of attack where you can see even the smallest portion of the plate.
Never heard of that, but I found a writeup. Funny, this almost HAS to be for the benefit of the turnpike's cameras, because the plates themselves are hard to read at a distance.
thumb.jpg


The last ones we had were a lot easier to read at a distance.
s-l300.jpg

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About 700ft or less. So the beam isn't tiny but I can tell you for a fact I wasn't on the bumper cover. If I panned up to the windshield, I lost reception since you can't lock on the windshield as far as I know. Maybe if it's tinted?

If this was Intermediate I could disclose it and tbh it's maybe more advanced than that since it has the potential to defeat jammers
Glass is supposed to stop IR cold, to the point that some of the boys on the apocalypse sites occasionally bring it up when they talk about how to evade all the bad gummit guys trying to track them (specifically them) down with their FLIR cameras mounted on fleets of Apache attack choppers while they're bugging out to their underground bunkers from which they'll repopulate the planet in their own image with all the tail they pull with their exciting brushes with the Forces of Evil (Holy Run-On Sentences, Batman!) Their plan to avoid being captured by a billion dollar's worth of military equipment is to carry a sheet of glass over their heads, but then they dissolve into a world of what-ifs. When researching possible ways to reduce the range of LIDAR, you come across some pretty weird people, and it's pretty entertaining when you're in the right mood.

On the primer being highly reflective, from the description I suspect that putting on enough extra coats, and asking the painter to add extra pigment, might be enough to reduce the effect by blocking the IR from reaching the primer. From the way they're talking it only takes about 15-20 percent coverage by the pigment to make the paint look the right color, and the remaining 80 percent of open spaces is enough for the primer to kick back a strong IR signal. In a world when cars light up brightly with IR, and the cops become accustomed to being able to get a reading from a mile away, extra pigment might buy enough time to slow down before they can get their read even without a jammer.
 
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Fireball

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You're correct. There's an ALPR research paper from a while back that found red letter plates are the hardest for ALPR to read
Neat. It also said that the system had problems reading stacked numbers, which I assume means the old stamped plates with the raised lettering. I wonder if this means a damaged plate would be more difficult to read, like say one that was "accidentally" bent when a trailer hitch slipped into it. It would be perfectly legible to a human, but the deep depression in the middle, perhaps with a tear that was hammered almost back into place, might make it impossible for a plate reader to read. It wouldn't affect it for LIDAR, of course, but those automated plate readers wouldn't be able to grab it.
 

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Neat. It also said that the system had problems reading stacked numbers, which I assume means the old stamped plates with the raised lettering. I wonder if this means a damaged plate would be more difficult to read, like say one that was "accidentally" bent when a trailer hitch slipped into it. It would be perfectly legible to a human, but the deep depression in the middle, perhaps with a tear that was hammered almost back into place, might make it impossible for a plate reader to read. It wouldn't affect it for LIDAR, of course, but those automated plate readers wouldn't be able to grab it.
Stacked means 2 or 3 letters on top of each other. Sometimes ALPR would misread it as a 1 or an I. But yeah flat plates are also for ALPR lol
 

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Glass is supposed to stop IR cold, to the point that some of the boys on the apocalypse sites occasionally bring it up when they talk about how to evade all the bad gummit guys trying to track them (specifically them) down with their FLIR cameras mounted on fleets of Apache attack choppers while they're bugging out to their underground bunkers from which they'll repopulate the planet in their own image with all the tail they pull with their exciting brushes with the Forces of Evil (Holy Run-On Sentences, Batman!) Their plan to avoid being captured by a billion dollar's worth of military equipment is to carry a sheet of glass over their heads, but then they dissolve into a world of what-ifs. When researching possible ways to reduce the range of LIDAR, you come across some pretty weird people, and it's pretty entertaining when you're in the right mood.
FLIR or thermal imaging cameras pick up heat, not IR (infrared). Thermal cameras are defeated by glass as they can't see heat through glass. Special lenses are required and are typically made from germanium.
 
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Is there any way we could counter it with this stuff? You kind of need to know what wavelength the guns are at. From what I read they are all 905nm.

 

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Is there any way we could counter it with this stuff? You kind of need to know what wavelength the guns are at. From what I read they are all 905nm.

1627961447880.png


Chloroform... No you don't understand officer I just needed it for it's IR absorbing properties
 

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FLIR or thermal imaging cameras pick up heat, not IR (infrared). Thermal cameras are defeated by glass as they can't see heat through glass. Special lenses are required and are typically made from germanium.
Thermal imaging != IR imaging? "Night vision" cameras all use IR light, but the image isnt white/black as in the video posted here

Or is this software dependent on how to interpret the reflected light back.
 

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FLIR or thermal imaging cameras pick up heat, not IR (infrared). Thermal cameras are defeated by glass as they can't see heat through glass. Special lenses are required and are typically made from germanium.
Infrared is not thermal energy? NASA disagrees.
 

Violetrays905

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Infrared is not thermal energy? NASA disagrees.
I guess since we can only see on the visible spectrum, we can chose how to represent higher/lower wavelengths/intensities of IR with color palettes for heat/cold. Or more/less reflectance/absorbance.

Some equipment displays IR as thermal spots, some as high/low energy areas in black/white images. We get to define how to interpret IR.
 

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