Tragedy vs RD ethos.

blackmapp

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Noddy, I'm very sorry for your loss as well as the family's loss as I can't imagine what they are going through and I understand you questioning things as a result of this tragedy, however as others have said, I don't think a generic statement that RD's cause speeding/reckless driving/grievous bodily injury/death is accurate as they are simply a tool.

I also didn't see anything to indicate if he happened to be using a RD either, but even if he had been, my opinion would be the same, since it is only a tool. Similarly, I don't think that it's the fault of a distillery for making alcohol if someone is involved in a drunk driving fatality (I'm not trying to insinuate that this young man was under the influence of alcohol, only using that as an analogy).

It's horrible, and definitely natural to try to find answers, especially when someone so young is taken, but as others have said, there could be many different things that ultimately led to the crash that a having a RD or not wouldn't have changed the outcome.

Hopefully in time, his family will be able to heal and hopefully the many words of encouragement from others here as well as time will help you heal as well.
 

Deacon

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often with tragic consequences
You may be overstating the frequency of such incidents, CMs or no.

I dont think he had an RD.
Then why the post? A static number on a sign guarantees a safe arrival no more than driving below or above it. Recklessness, distractions, and otherwise incompetence claim many a fender and on occasion a life. Do not confuse simple speed with any of those, much less the sole or even prevailing cause. We’ve all had close calls in our lives, including on the road, and everyone reacts differently. In this case it may simply be a distracted teenager driving too far beyond his ability, and this time he was unlucky and paid the ultimate price.
 

Dolphin

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An RD doesn't make your car to drive over speed limits - your foot on an acceleration pedal does. RDs are no more responsible for it than cars that can drive faster than speed limits are. And I suspect that everybody drives such cars, including you and me.

Technology is not responsible for your actions, you are. So we can't blame RDs, or cars for those accidents. Drivers are those who use the technology, and drivers are those who are responsible for repercussions of its use. Use it responsibly and your consciousness will be at a right place.

My understanding is that speed limits are set to the "lowest denominator", so that a person with a slowest reaction in a worst technically allowed car still can drive that part of a road safely. I don't see a problem in exceeding the PSL, if current conditions allow me to do it safely for me and for others around me. Conditions like a good visibility ahead, no traffic around, no possibility of sudden pedestrians on a road, a driver not being tired, a car is in a good technical condition... Having an RD is not one of those conditions. It's just a protection against those who think that everybody should drive not faster than the worst driver legally allowed to have a license (the "lowest denominator").

In short, accidents don't happen because of driving over a PSL. Accidents happen because of driving over a reasonable speed for these particular conditions. And each driver is responsible to choose a reasonable speed.
 

pipinos1976

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From my experience (and I happen to have a lot of that) there is much more danger when you drive with heavy traffic and minimal distances, even below the PSL, than on an empty road with speeds that can send you to prison. Police, at least here, is always occupied with writing tickets for speeding, tinting, illegal street racing, speeding, speeding and speeding. Oh I forgot to mention speeding. And all these on the empty roads. If you have holiday traffic, the direction with the traffic has no police, or there is a patrol car every 100km, parked under the shadow. The opposite direction, where you can speed with safety, has always one or two speed traps to gather money.

Using RDs or other CM is an illegal activity here that protects the licence and nothing more. I don't need to use CM since I know all the speed traps but I understand those who use them. Since I started using them I started driving within logic which means within the protection of the RD (let's say PSL + 30). If I'm going to really speed I turn everything off. It's useless after all if I'm going to drive with PSL + 100.
 

XDA

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Here in my home state "speeding" is defined as driving faster than reasonable & prudent under the circumstances. The PSL is prima facie evidence of speeding, but it is rebuttable. In many cases the PSL is set due to the Clean Air Act and not a traffic engineering study.
I drive slow around town like the old fart I am, but once on the highway I will drive what I think is reasonable, and often that is substantially above the anemic PSL. So I use countermeasures to keep the State's revenue generators off my back.
If I thought what I was doing was dangerous or negligent I wouldn't be doing it.

And I am sorry for the young man's loss of life.
 

LouG

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There was a comment about Performance Driving lessons. These are great for track driving, but of minimal value on todays crowded roads. While you're correcting your understeer or oversteer you can still go under a truck.
Racing lines on twisty roads are not the safest way, going deeper into the corner and using a late apex gives you more visibility ahead and more space between you and an oncoming car that may be running wide.

The best fast road drivers I've seen have a level of anticipation that seems psychic, and rarely get their car or bike out of shape. It's what we called car language, as in body language. One example is a car ahead that moves very slightly to the side of it's lane. That's sometimes the driver looking to see if its clear to move across, as he looks in his mirror he's unconsciously moving the steering in that direction. It's called "going where you look" in bike training.
That also brings up target fixation which is the same thing. I've watched a driver hit the brakes, had the choice of steering right or left to miss the car that pulled out, but drove straight into it because that's what he was looking at.
If you anticipate something and react to it correctly you'll seldom need emergency manouevres.
BTW. Regardless of why Noddy posted this, it is an interesting thread. While we all use aids to speeding, we all have a responsibility to people we share the road with.
 
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Boozehound

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why not give the kid a loaded gun?
My dad did exactly that and it worked out just fine. I keep one in the car to this day, just like he does and for exactly the same reasons. There are citizens and there are subjects.

But I agree on the pony cars, especially yesteryear. Glad I was 21 before buying 5.0 Fox-body Mustang Notch. Having that car at 16 wouldn't have been good at all. Not even at 18. A current 5.0 is faster as delivered but much, much slower to swap ends. Still not advisable for the kids.

If you anticipate something and react to it correctly you'll seldom need emergency manouevres.
This is why my original rear brakes lasted 200K miles on a car driven triple digits nearly every time I get in it. And they are drum brakes! Got 90K+ out of the last front pads. So few people look as far down the road as they can.
 

Disco47

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Bad driving kills, running with bad equipment kills. You can speed and still be driving completely safe. The Autobahn has no speed limit in many areas and is one of the safest highways in the world. So I'm gonna continue keeping it 💯
 

LouG

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I think all the Europeans are far superior to our Anglo Saxon countries drivers. Even the Italians, who have a bad name, were far more aware than your average kiwi. And they take speed limits as a suggestion.
I was more comfortable and relaxed driving 10,000 km's there than here.
 

kort677

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I think all the Europeans are far superior to our Anglo Saxon countries drivers. Even the Italians, who have a bad name, were far more aware than your average kiwi. And they take speed limits as a suggestion.
I was more comfortable and relaxed driving 10,000 km's there than here.
I cannot speak for all of europe but germany's requirements for getting a driver's license are intense. here in the US if you have a pulse they will issue a license.
 

Axatax

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I feel I'm a much more cautious driver with countermeasures. This is going to be dependent on the individual though, and their particular reasons for having them. YMMV as always.

Just stay safe.
 

Lucky225

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I feel I'm a much more cautious driver with countermeasures. This is going to be dependent on the individual though, and their particular reasons for having them. YMMV as always.

Just stay safe.
I agree, they're a tool to assist you in driving, just like any other car safety feature. Backup cameras, BSM, pre collision assist, etc. are all designed to alert you to your surroundings, radar detectors are just another tool to help keep you situationally aware.
 

LouG

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C'mon now, radar detectors are there to make you aware of cops trying to rape your wallet. Let's not over egg the pudding by claiming they're a safety device.
It's more likely that detector users include a higher proportion of enthusiasts who take pride in being a good driver even if they travel faster than the authorities would like
Therein lies the CM game.
 

CPB

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My appetite for the whole RD philosophy has been shaken by a recent tragedy.
A local 19 yo sports hero from a very decent and well respected family was killed
in an accident on Friday night on his way home from a match winning performance.

The community is devastated as this boy breathed a joy, and enthusiasm for life into
everyone he met. An absolutely fantastic, humble, generous and friendly lad with whom my children played on teams or teams
with his sisters. Almost every paper published his photographs, but his sporting greatness was secondary
to his innate goodness, humility and generosity.

It is suspected that he may have been speeding when his modified and lowered VW jetta collided with
and SUV when he lost control and skidded into the oncoming traffic that night.
Thankfully the other party was only slightly injured. Obviously we don't know the full story yet, but a lot of these accidents involve excess speed.

Personally I don't consider myself a speed merchant, but a low concentration dreamer and can drift over speed limits, giving the revenue collectors easy pickings.
But this device does enable people to speed, often with tragic consequences and such beautiful lives ended.
So, can we really justify using such devices or are we deluding ourselves and putting ourselves and others in danger?
I hope I don't sound like a preacher or moralist, but maybe I need some help?
Was the only reason he was speeding/crashing due to owning a radar detector? Otherwise he'd of driven perfectly well and arrived home unharmed?

That's how I would approach ideas like this. Not sure how the detector was the instrument of death given people sped before and continue to without detectors. Also most fatal accidents are a result of distraction not detection.
 

Crazy Horse

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Coming back to the second part of your "versus," I think you'll find that RD owners are excellent drivers. I have never met an RD one that obtains one for the purpose of being able to drive recklessly, engage in moves that are best left to the track, etc. RD owners are invariably commuters or people who drive a lot, and are stymied and frustrated by the inflexibility of fixed speed limits, regardless of traffic and road conditions. Exceeding the PSL in a responsible way if the circumstances allow for it should be permissible but it isn't. Guarding against heavyhanded enforcement of such illogical limits is what leads 99.999% of RD owners to get an RD.
 

knight_man

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I'm not going to say it isn't sad, it is not cool at all, but I'm not convinced that it had anything to do with a radar detector.

When any of my 3 friends died behind the wheel over the years, not one of them was using a radar detector. In fact, one of them wasn't even speeding when his car was crushed and burned under a dump truck he met head on. Ironically it was on the same road 3 of his friends were killed after being struck by a dump truck. My cousin was a state road worker, ran over by a dump truck. Maybe we should consider a ban on dump trucks?

Drive as fast as you can afford to go.
 

Fireball

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I don't think the OP was on about a detector causing the kid to die. I think what he was aiming at is the kid died speeding, radar detectors are used to facilitate speeding, so is there a casual connection between the two. And, the answer is no, nor should there be any guilt in using a radar detector as a tool for speeding. What killed the kid was high speed combined with either inattentive driving or driving beyond his abilities. Sorry the kid died, but running a radar detector had nothing to do with it, the kid didn't even have a detector, and there should be no guilt by association here.
 

Noddy

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You may be overstating the frequency of such incidents, CMs or no.


Then why the post? A static number on a sign guarantees a safe arrival no more than driving below or above it. Recklessness, distractions, and otherwise incompetence claim many a fender and on occasion a life. Do not confuse simple speed with any of those, much less the sole or even prevailing cause. We’ve all had close calls in our lives, including on the road, and everyone reacts differently. In this case it may simply be a distracted teenager driving too far beyond his ability, and this time he was unlucky and paid the ultimate price.
I think the main reason I posted was that my conscience was tingled and I wanted to test the idea that, since speed may contribute to some of these accidents, was it in someway irresponsible to find ways around government speeding traps or should I just try to stay under limit?

I am very new to CM's and feel I had become a bit gung-ho, losing touch with the devastating reality of a fatal accident and all the disadvantages of speed when a sudden crises arises. I was interested in hearing how others dealt with this issue, and boy am I glad I did!

The amount of wisdom, reasoning, reassurance and advice given here has been very thought provoking and has helped me justify the use of my RD.

I also received great comfort and advice on such a loss, which I hoped helped others.

Unfortunately, as I don't currently have gout, a business logo to test, or bust pipes; I am limited in what I can post. But its great to have these discussions to reference in future if required. LOL 😂
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I don't think the OP was on about a detector causing the kid to die. I think what he was aiming at is the kid died speeding, radar detectors are used to facilitate speeding, so is there a casual connection between the two. And, the answer is no, nor should there be any guilt in using a radar detector as a tool for speeding. What killed the kid was high speed combined with either inattentive driving or driving beyond his abilities. Sorry the kid died, but running a radar detector had nothing to do with it, the kid didn't even have a detector, and there should be no guilt by association here.
Thanks Fireball, you are correct in my reasoning. A philosophical enquiry!
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Was the only reason he was speeding/crashing due to owning a radar detector? Otherwise he'd of driven perfectly well and arrived home unharmed?

That's how I would approach ideas like this. Not sure how the detector was the instrument of death given people sped before and continue to without detectors. Also most fatal accidents are a result of distraction not detection.
No CPB, I should have made this clear in my very first post, he did not use an RD as far as I'm aware.
It is indeed a casual association.
Timing was the real provocation for this post. I'm only using CM's a few months, and then this fabulous boy who we knew so well gets killed in an accident.
I had to examine my conscience as I felt guilty and was seeking other opinions.
I have since been reassured.
 
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LouG

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Let's look at speeding in a different way. Our Government agencies say that if I exceed 110 km/h on a nearby toll road I'll die. But when I'm in Italy, in a less able rental car than my own car, I can travel at 130km/h on very similar roads and not die. In fact, I travelled at 180 km/h for quite a few km's and still didn't die. Not even once.
Now I've had quite a bit of experience in driving fast in traffic, most people don't get to do that legally, but if we taught people to be competent drivers they could drive faster and fewer would die.
Sorry, how stupid of me, I was forgetting about fine revenue, and the need for politicians to justify financially sodomising us.
 

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