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T75

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Am a simple florida man who wants to test the limits of passive countermeasures. I'm familiar with the bare basics of stealth with radar I'm nowhere near where I want to be in terms of education and would like to see if it's possible to make a cars RCS small enough to be undetectable down to 500 meters. This isn't because I want to race or anything, I just got a 300 dollar ticket for going 8 miles over and have been fuming so hard that I'm willing to spend some cash(well above what the ticket was) to avoid that embarrassment ever again.

Is this goal possible with a combination of commercially available radar absorbant material( digikey part number: 903-1523-ND) Fiberglass panels with nonmetallic paint and adding slanted metal to chassis/metal parts to deflect as much radar as possible.

I understand that doing this for all angles of the vehicle would be difficult so I'd be fine with front facing limited protection.
 

biolink

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Welcome! Youre a man with a dream! I love it! I think with traffic RADAR detection is your most economical path. LIDAR on the other hand......
 

RoadDogg

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@T75 , Welcome to the Forum!! We are glad to have you here. Good luck on your quest.
 

Comrade

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Am a simple florida man who wants to test the limits of passive countermeasures. I'm familiar with the bare basics of stealth with radar I'm nowhere near where I want to be in terms of education and would like to see if it's possible to make a cars RCS small enough to be undetectable down to 500 meters. This isn't because I want to race or anything, I just got a 300 dollar ticket for going 8 miles over and have been fuming so hard that I'm willing to spend some cash(well above what the ticket was) to avoid that embarrassment ever again.

Is this goal possible with a combination of commercially available radar absorbant material( digikey part number: 903-1523-ND) Fiberglass panels with nonmetallic paint and adding slanted metal to chassis/metal parts to deflect as much radar as possible.

I understand that doing this for all angles of the vehicle would be difficult so I'd be fine with front facing limited protection.
Anger has been the fuel for a great many things in history. I admire the idea and will be curious to see what comes of it. Welcome to the forum :)
 

Disco47

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Your car would need to be shaped a funky way to deflect radar away from the gun that's aimed at you. Radar absorbing paint helps some...but what you're asking sounds almost impossible. But I wish you luck regardless.

The good thing is that you can jam Lidar with the correct equipment. It's active, not passive jamming. ALP makes the best system. https://www.alpriorityusa.com/
 

T75

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I understand the funky shape requirement and honestly if the results I want are possible with a weird looking front end shape I'm fine frankensteining something with a welding torch or fiberglass. The thing that's making me doubt if this is possible is the question of how much of an RCS you would need to register a speed, if it's so small that even a stealth bomber would get clocked at 1km by a police radar gun then I'm screwed, but if it's as easy as having the car be a wedge then nearly fine with the required work.

Your car would need to be shaped a funky way to deflect radar away from the gun that's aimed at you. Radar absorbing paint helps some...but what you're asking sounds almost impossible. But I wish you luck regardless.

The good thing is that you can jam Lidar with the correct equipment. It's active, not passive jamming. ALP makes the best system. https://www.alpriorityusa.co
 

milkman

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welcome to the forum
 

RedThread

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sorry to read of your ticket.. be glad it wasn't school zone related or something ignoble as a speed camera. Florida has many enforcement opportunities and they are effective against small footprints like motorcycles.. you've got your work cut out for you.
Welcome to RDF..
 

RedThread

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@T75
DDG provided an entertaining set of crib notes from a 2004 myth busters.. last note is the meat.
.
and a company that makes the iron silica additive...
.
 

Token

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Am a simple florida man who wants to test the limits of passive countermeasures. I'm familiar with the bare basics of stealth with radar I'm nowhere near where I want to be in terms of education and would like to see if it's possible to make a cars RCS small enough to be undetectable down to 500 meters. This isn't because I want to race or anything, I just got a 300 dollar ticket for going 8 miles over and have been fuming so hard that I'm willing to spend some cash(well above what the ticket was) to avoid that embarrassment ever again.

Is this goal possible with a combination of commercially available radar absorbant material( digikey part number: 903-1523-ND) Fiberglass panels with nonmetallic paint and adding slanted metal to chassis/metal parts to deflect as much radar as possible.

I understand that doing this for all angles of the vehicle would be difficult so I'd be fine with front facing limited protection.

Hello T75. And know that more than a few people have been in your same headspace in the past.

There are two answers to your question, yes and no. So very Zen-like.

My below answers are going to be very simplified. That means there will be errors of omission and caused by generalization, but the general concept should come across.

The answer can be yes, you could reduce the RCS of a car, along a specific threat axis, enough to allow it to be detected at a significantly shorter range than an untreated vehicle. Exactly what that range would be depends on what you start with. There is no one specific tracking range for cars, it varies by car model and a wide variety of conditions. And, before you start asking lots of specifics, there is very little in the way of good, hard, data on different car models and their specific RCS's.

But the real answer is no, you are not going to do so at a realistically possible cost and level of effort.

To achieve this goal would take a combination of techniques, it will not be cheap, and it will not be simple. And you might need an RCS range to help fine tune things.

Reducing reflections.

Yes, you will probably have to use RAM or a RAM like substance/coating/barrier, but RAM alone will not do it. The Eccosorb you point out (there are better options, more applicable to a vehicle surface...and more costly) may be able to achieve about 20 dB of cross section reduction in the regions it is applied for some of the desirable frequencies, K and Ka bands. In some specific frequency ranges it is a good bit more than that. However, it will have less than 10 dB reduction in X band.

So if you can wrap the front of the vehicle in Eccosorb you might reduce that contributor to RCS by ~20 dB. Sounds good, ah? But, you have only reduced those specific contributors, so the total is not down ~20 dB, only the reflections for those parts are down ~20 dB. What about the wheels? You are not going to wrap the tires, their steel belts, the reflective surface on the inside of the wheel, etc, in Eccosorb. How about the reflections from the undercarriage, A arms, tie rods, steering knuckles, half shafts, etc. All can be addressed, and would have to be. You can start to see that you will have to seal the bottom of the vehicle, so that there are no reflections and scattering from the shapes under there. How about the reflections from the interior of the vehicle? You are not going to coat your windshield with any kind of RAM (none are optically clear), so the energy may be reflecting around inside the cab, off everything you can think of, the frames of your headrests, the roof bows, etc. Sure, you can probably cover most of that also, eventually.

Or you can treat the windshield so it does not allow RF to pass through and have an easier time with those reflections. Fortunately, some windshields come that way already.

Of course, the windshield so treated does not absorb the energy, but rather reflects it, which leads us to the second major technique:

Controlling reflections.

By being careful of shape you can start to control reflections. At the most basic level, when you can't stop a reflection you want to make sure the reflection goes in any direction but back to the radar source. Round things are bad, because they present a reflective surface to a wide range of arrival angles, flat things are worse if they happen to be orthogonal to the radar source. But flat things are easy and can be angled to reflect away.

But in addition to simple surfaces, how all the surfaces interact has to be assessed. The joints between one body panel and the next must never present a right angle to the radar source. The joints of the body panels must be electrically conductive.

So you end up with an oddly shaped vehicle, with an expensive surface that does not hold up well to the elements and which you have to periodically renew. In one outside application where we use Eccosorb we have to replace it every year.

And if you do all of this just right, you will not be invisible. But you may give yourself extra seconds to respond to a radar. And you still will not defeat an officer using instant on radar at very close range.

T!
 
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