Does Radenso Theia support X Band?

Radenso Theia should eliminate detection of X-band police radars in its specifications.

  • Yes

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rwsmith123

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In satellite TV systems there is a smart card that is used for authorization (looks similar to chip enabled credit cards). For one system if you were able to hack it and dump the eeprom and looked at the data as ASCII, the first thing you would see is the string "NipPEr Is a buTt liCkeR!". Apparently nipper was a hacker that the manufacturer didn’t much care for.

While not very likely, it’s not totally bonkers that an engineer working on a radar unit used on a car could purposely design it to be a pain in the butt for radar detector users.

There is a chip used in some mainframe computers that if you looked at the bare silicon surface you would see that the circuits on the chip form my initials “RWS”, allegedly.... 😁
 

Fireball

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I have no words.
“Anti-detector Engineer at an OEM”

Really??

This is getting ridiculous. You guys figure it out.
I didn't mean an OEM engineer hired specifically to defeat radar detectors, I mean an engineer hired to work on the BSM systems who is, in his own time, a putz. Someone who hates radar detectors and those who use them, and goes out of his way to make life harder for detector users. So when he puts the BSM system on the drawing board, how better to cause pain in Detectorland than to turn every car on the road into a transmitter in the police range?

In my opinion, and we all know what opinions are, it's no accident that BSM systems are using the same frequencies that radar guns use. It would have been just as easy to spec out gear that fell outside police radar bands. The engineers that designed this could have specced out, say, 30Ghz for these systems, which as far as I know isn't currently used for anything. But instead, the engineers used a frequency that is used by police radar which has resulted in millions of detectors being turned into Audi/Kia/Suburban detectors. Given the millions of systems they planned to install, speccing out a specific frequency that wouldn't interfere with radar detectors wouldn't have been a big deal. If anyone has a better idea on why they put these things right in the same range as police detectors, and setting the systems to be strong enough to set off detectors but not strong enough to interfere with legitimate police guns, I'd be glad to hear them.

And now, we wait on Deacon and STS-134 to make long arguments on why this could never be the case.
 
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WildOne

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In my opinion, and we all know what opinions are, it's no accident that BSM systems are using the same frequencies that radar guns use. It would have been just as easy to spec out gear that fell outside police radar bands. The engineers that designed this could have specced out, say, 30Ghz for these systems, which as far as I know isn't currently used for anything. But instead, the engineers used a frequency that is used by police radar which has resulted in millions of detectors being turned into Audi/Kia/Suburban detectors.
I hate to burst your argument, but the design engineers didn't decide anything. There is such a thing as government regulations for the whole world that specify what is allowed on every single frequency, what power is allowed and how interference between systems will be handled. The 24GHz radar band is part of what is known as the Industrial, Scientific, and Medical (ISM) frequency bands.


ISM-Bands.png



Goggle it or look at this Pasternak reference: https://blog.pasternack.com/uncategorized/what-are-the-ism-bands-and-what-are-they-used-for/
 

Token

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If anyone has a better idea on why they put these things right in the same range as police detectors, and setting the systems to be strong enough to set off detectors but not strong enough to interfere with legitimate police guns, I'd be glad to hear them.

As WildOne indicated, in gross ways the frequency used is beyond the selection of the BSM engineer. It is driven by multiple factors, technology, commercial availability, regulations, and the interdependencies of all of those factors.

At its most simple, the same regulations that put the K band police radars in K band, and allow for unlicensed operation of radar guns by non-police users, also drove the BSM designers to use those frequencies.

Looking at the ISM band allocations (decided by both international and national regulations and agreements, long before BSMs were a thing), it can be easy to say "well, they could have picked another band if they wanted to", but really, could they have? A couple of facts drove the selection of 24 GHz for these applications. Lower frequencies require physically larger devices, particularly with regards to antennas and tuned circuits. The hardware for higher frequencies cost more. When BSMs started to be a thing 24 GHz was the sweat spot, a good balance of size, cost, and hardware availability. Today the trend is towards higher frequencies and bands, this is driven by both modifications to regulations, allowing other frequencies to be used for these devices, and the lowering of costs for higher frequency devices.

As for "but not strong enough to interfere with legitimate police guns", that is simply not a thing either. Ever wonder why two police radars, made by the same maker, in the same band, and set to the same frequency, don't interfere with each other? The basic answer is that the passband of the radar, for the purposes of speed detection, is so narrow that the chances of the two radars being close enough in frequency, and then staying close enough in frequency to cause interference across the multiple samples required to establish speed, just will not happen. The police radar is basically nearly "interference proof" because it is unstable in frequency, and unless the interference tracks the radars frequency very closely it will not cause issues.

You could intentionally design a BSM to interfere with a police radar gun in the same band, for example by selecting a chirp repetition rate that would indicate a specific speed on the gun, but you really would have to try to do so. And the parameters that would make a BSM a good radar jammer would make it a poor BSM. The very things that make a BSM a good BSM and a radar gun a good radial velocity detector are also the things that minimize the potential interference between the gun and the BSM.

T!
 
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MikePA

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I have no words.
“Anti-detector Engineer at an OEM”

Really??

This is getting ridiculous. You guys figure it out.
Agreed - The ludicrous crap some people believe.

I have no doubt that and one who believes this, will not let a few facts, like WildOne posted, stand in their way.
 

WildOne

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Aren't some manufactures, like Mercedes, using a different frequency up in the 60GHz region?
Yes, depending on the purpose, some are going to 60ghz and even 77ghz. 24ghz will be around for awhile though.
 

MikePA

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Yes, depending on the purpose, some are going to 60ghz and even 77ghz. 24ghz will be around for awhile though.
Wouldn't the frequency they use depend on what the REAL power behind the curtain orders them to use, you know, the frequency that would mess up the most radar detectors? :)

iu.gif
 
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Fireball

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I hate to burst your argument, but the design engineers didn't decide anything. There is such a thing as government regulations for the whole world that specify what is allowed on every single frequency, what power is allowed and how interference between systems will be handled. The 24GHz radar band is part of what is known as the Industrial, Scientific, and Medical (ISM) frequency bands.


View attachment 181809


Goggle it or look at this Pasternak reference: https://blog.pasternack.com/uncategorized/what-are-the-ism-bands-and-what-are-they-used-for/
Heh heh, based on that they could have gone with 61GHz.
 

Heywood

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When the 24GHz BSM came out, 60GHz would have cost more than the whole car just for the components and it would have been bigger than the glove box. Technology advances....
And just like other options that were reserved for the top trims ( keyless entry, push button start, adaptive cruise control) the tech has gotten cheaper and those things are making their way to the other trim levels. Some standard, some as an option, but no where near the cost they use to present.
 

Jon at Radenso

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I'm glad we don't have to deal with 60ghz; 44ghz equipment is expensive enough as it is. 60ghz would be an entire price tier up.
 

Fireball

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As WildOne indicated, in gross ways the frequency used is beyond the selection of the BSM engineer. It is driven by multiple factors, technology, commercial availability, regulations, and the interdependencies of all of those factors.

At its most simple, the same regulations that put the K band police radars in K band, and allow for unlicensed operation of radar guns by non-police users, also drove the BSM designers to use those frequencies.

Looking at the ISM band allocations (decided by both international and national regulations and agreements, long before BSMs were a thing), it can be easy to say "well, they could have picked another band if they wanted to", but really, could they have? A couple of facts drove the selection of 24 GHz for these applications. Lower frequencies require physically larger devices, particularly with regards to antennas and tuned circuits. The hardware for higher frequencies cost more. When BSMs started to be a thing 24 GHz was the sweat spot, a good balance of size, cost, and hardware availability. Today the trend is towards higher frequencies and bands, this is driven by both modifications to regulations, allowing other frequencies to be used for these devices, and the lowering of costs for higher frequency devices.
I figured cost would be part of the real reason, but conspiracies are more fun.
As for "but not strong enough to interfere with legitimate police guns", that is simply not a thing either. Ever wonder why two police radars, made by the same maker, in the same band, and set to the same frequency, don't interfere with each other? The basic answer is that the passband of the radar, for the purposes of speed detection, is so narrow that the chances of the two radars being close enough in frequency, and then staying close enough in frequency to cause interference across the multiple samples required to establish speed, just will not happen. The police radar is basically nearly "interference proof" because it is unstable in frequency, and unless the interference tracks the radars frequency very closely it will not cause issues.
Now here we have a disagreement. A signal that is strong enough doesn't have to match a signal exactly, it just has to be stronger than the radar gun's return signal within the same frequency range. A very small transmitter that can send a spike out at, say, 2W, can easily override a reflected signal generated by a 25mW transmitter. And, if said transmitter has no bandpass filters, it doesn't just pump power at the one frequency, it spreads out from the center, can have sidelobes if strong enough, and if the signal emitted is stronger than the return from the radar gun, the cops's radar gun can't pull its own signal out of the trash. If this wasn't the case, radar jammers wouldn't work, and wouldn't be illegal to own.

You could intentionally design a BSM to interfere with a police radar gun in the same band, for example by selecting a chirp repetition rate that would indicate a specific speed on the gun, but you really would have to try to do so. And the parameters that would make a BSM a good radar jammer would make it a poor BSM. The very things that make a BSM a good BSM and a radar gun a good radial velocity detector are also the things that minimize the potential interference between the gun and the BSM.

T!
Yes, just as you can make a BSM NOT capable of jamming a police gun, yet easily able to trigger any radar detector within half a mile with a police-like signal. Stick this on millions of cars, and you wind up with a highway system that constantly sets off radar detectors to the point that the detector is useless. Which, as I recall, was the original point of my statement about BSM units falsing radar detectors.
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I'm glad we don't have to deal with 60ghz; 44ghz equipment is expensive enough as it is. 60ghz would be an entire price tier up.
You may not have to, but it looks like the OEMs might be going to 77GHz systems. Sez here 24GHz BSM systems are being phased out next year, which means I was correct that the OEMs could just as easily have picked a different freq range to use, since they're picking another one now. Course, I didn't know about this article when I posted my conspiracy theory about the radar detector hating engineer. With any luck, falsing K bands will become a rarity as these cars equipped with it get older and get trashed or the systems fail and aren't repaired.

 
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BMBSALES

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]

You may not have to, but it looks like the OEMs might be going to 77GHz systems. Sez here 24GHz BSM systems are being phased out next year, which means I was correct that the OEMs could just as easily have picked a different freq range to use, since they're picking another one now. Course, I didn't know about this article when I posted my conspiracy theory about the radar detector hating engineer. With any luck, falsing K bands will become a rarity as these cars equipped with it get older and get trashed or the systems fail and aren't repaired.

actually, it just probably means that the cost has come down enough now, to pick a “more expensive” range. Not so in the past…
 

Token

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Now here we have a disagreement. A signal that is strong enough doesn't have to match a signal exactly, it just has to be stronger than the radar gun's return signal within the same frequency range. A very small transmitter that can send a spike out at, say, 2W, can easily override a reflected signal generated by a 25mW transmitter. And, if said transmitter has no bandpass filters, it doesn't just pump power at the one frequency, it spreads out from the center, can have sidelobes if strong enough, and if the signal emitted is stronger than the return from the radar gun, the cops's radar gun can't pull its own signal out of the trash. If this wasn't the case, radar jammers wouldn't work, and wouldn't be illegal to own.

I did not mean to say that police radars cannot be jammed, but to do so you have a few specific types of signal you must transmit. The nature of police radars, simple CW radars, makes them resistant to accidental jamming. BSMs, with their required waveform design to achieve the primary task, would make a very poor jammer of police guns.

The jamming signal you describe has to be strong enough to present a positive J/S (Jam to Signal) ratio within the passband of the radar, more importantly within the bandwidth of the reflected signal.

Perhaps you need to look at the spectral energy density involved.

Your "unfiltered" 2 Watt transmitter (what you are describing is probably broadband noise jamming) that does not exactly match the radar frequency spreads its energy out across its entire transmitted bandpass. It does not put out 2 Watts everywhere, but rather the total power transmitted is 2 Watts spread out across the total width of the signal. Since it is off frequency, but wide enough to encompass the radar center frequency, the energy contained within the radars actual passband is a small fraction of the total transmitted jammer energy.

For the sake of argument, lets say the 2 Watt jammer transmitter is 50 MHz wide (and it really should be wider than this), to hit the center portion of the K band, say hitting 24.150 +/- 25 MHz. That 2 Watts is spread out across that 50 MHz. Assuming it is relatively flat across that bandwidth (it will not be, it is more likely to be, say, Gausian, but for ease of example lets call it flat) that will come out to something like 40 nanoWatts per Hz from the 2 Watt transmitter. In actuality it will be less than this, because the signal will have some energy outside the desired transmitted passband. But go with the 40 nW/Hz.

By comparison the Police radar, being a CW transmission and very narrow, is transmitting many times that level energy per Hz, even though the total power of the Police radar is so much less than the 2 Watt transmitter.

On the other hand, if you track the police radar frequency accurately you can jam using much less power. I mean, you could in MineCraft, since you can't in the USA ;)

Yes, just as you can make a BSM NOT capable of jamming a police gun, yet easily able to trigger any radar detector within half a mile with a police-like signal. Stick this on millions of cars, and you wind up with a highway system that constantly sets off radar detectors to the point that the detector is useless. Which, as I recall, was the original point of my statement about BSM units falsing radar detectors.

Errr...no. To design a BSM to NOT jam a radar gun all you have to do is design it to do its job well. By the nature of the required signal this will not be very effective as a police radar jammer, in fact it will be very, very, ineffective. There is no extra effort required to make it not jam police guns. This will still trigger traditional detectors that simply look for energy within a specific range of frequencies without trying to look at the details of what the energy is doing. In fact it would be very difficult, impossible really until the latest examples of detectors, to design a BSM to NOT trigger a traditional radar detector.

More simply put, to actually make a BSM jam a police radar gun, even a little bit, would require specific effort. To make it trigger a radar detector requires no effort at all beyond designing it to do its basic job.

Your original assumption that engineers could have easily selected a different frequency range is incorrect. Selecting a different frequency range would have been more difficult and more costly. Your insinuation that BSMs are specifically designed to hit radar detectors and not interfere with police radars is incorrect.

And as for your last statement in that post, "If anyone has a better idea on why they put these things right in the same range as police detectors, and setting the systems to be strong enough to set off detectors but not strong enough to interfere with legitimate police guns, I'd be glad to hear them." I think that has been explained. It takes no conspiracy theory to account for everything you ask. But to summarize based on your question:

Why are some BSMs in the same frequency range as police radars and radar detectors? The limited bands of frequencies available to be used by BSMs are set by international regulation, regulations that were not written specifically to BSMs and were written before BSMs were a thing. Those same regulations are also why police radars use the frequencies they use (at least in S, X, and K band, the Ka band police radars fall under different regulations). At the time BSMs started becoming a thing, the K band, also occupied by police radar, was the sweat spot for cost and capability. Today BSMs are starting to move away from K band.

Why are BSMs, in your observation, set strong enough to set off detectors but not strong enough to interfere with legitimate police guns? It is not a matter of "strength", rather it is a confluence of how traditional radar detectors work, the required (in order to do their jobs) waveforms that BSMs use, and the way police radars work. By their basic natures traditional radar detectors respond to the simple presence of energy in the right frequency ranges, BSMs cause energy in one right frequency range, K band. By their basic waveforms (driven by the jobs they do) BSMs are extremely unlikely to interfere with police radars.

T!
 
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Deacon

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I was correct that the OEMs could just as easily have picked a different freq range to use
No, they could not have done so just as easily.

BSMs aren’t designed to jam police radar, and they don’t (can’t, really). Detectors, on the other hand, alert to anything in the range they’re listening to. Where there’s overlap, detectors will alert unless they’re able to filter it out.

It’s like saying my neighbors are intentionally trying to mess with my security camera by letting the cat out, which sometimes sets off that security camera’s alert. My camera’s not smart enough to reliably figure out when it’s a person causing the motion and when it’s a cat, but that has nothing to do with why my neighbors let their cat out, and they probably have zero idea (nor care) that it can wreak havoc with my camera alerting system.

Maybe Radenso will license RAI to security camera vendors to more accurately identify humans within the camera itself ;)
 

nicholat

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My door bell camera has filters install to limit number of false notification by having a human filter option, it still alert about as much as my radar detector.
 

Fireball

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I did not mean to say that police radars cannot be jammed, but to do so you have a few specific types of signal you must transmit. The nature of police radars, simple CW radars, makes them resistant to accidental jamming. BSMs, with their required waveform design to achieve the primary task, would make a very poor jammer of police guns.

The jamming signal you describe has to be strong enough to present a positive J/S (Jam to Signal) ratio within the passband of the radar, more importantly within the bandwidth of the reflected signal.

Perhaps you need to look at the spectral energy density involved.

Your "unfiltered" 2 Watt transmitter (what you are describing is probably broadband noise jamming) that does not exactly match the radar frequency spreads its energy out across its entire transmitted bandpass. It does not put out 2 Watts everywhere, but rather the total power transmitted is 2 Watts spread out across the total width of the signal. Since it is off frequency, but wide enough to encompass the radar center frequency, the energy contained within the radars actual passband is a small fraction of the total transmitted jammer energy.

For the sake of argument, lets say the 2 Watt jammer transmitter is 50 MHz wide (and it really should be wider than this), to hit the center portion of the K band, say hitting 24.150 +/- 25 MHz. That 2 Watts is spread out across that 50 MHz. Assuming it is relatively flat across that bandwidth (it will not be, it is more likely to be, say, Gausian, but for ease of example lets call it flat) that will come out to something like 40 nanoWatts per Hz from the 2 Watt transmitter. In actuality it will be less than this, because the signal will have some energy outside the desired transmitted passband. But go with the 40 nW/Hz.

By comparison the Police radar, being a CW transmission and very narrow, is transmitting many times that level energy per Hz, even though the total power of the Police radar is so much less than the 2 Watt transmitter.

On the other hand, if you track the police radar frequency accurately you can jam using much less power. I mean, you could in MineCraft, since you can't in the USA ;)



Errr...no. To design a BSM to NOT jam a radar gun all you have to do is design it to do its job well. By the nature of the required signal this will not be very effective as a police radar jammer, in fact it will be very, very, ineffective. There is no extra effort required to make it not jam police guns. This will still trigger traditional detectors that simply look for energy within a specific range of frequencies without trying to look at the details of what the energy is doing. In fact it would be very difficult, impossible really until the latest examples of detectors, to design a BSM to NOT trigger a traditional radar detector.

More simply put, to actually make a BSM jam a police radar gun, even a little bit, would require specific effort. To make it trigger a radar detector requires no effort at all beyond designing it to do its basic job.

Your original assumption that engineers could have easily selected a different frequency range is incorrect. Selecting a different frequency range would have been more difficult and more costly. Your insinuation that BSMs are specifically designed to hit radar detectors and not interfere with police radars is incorrect.

And as for your last statement in that post, "If anyone has a better idea on why they put these things right in the same range as police detectors, and setting the systems to be strong enough to set off detectors but not strong enough to interfere with legitimate police guns, I'd be glad to hear them." I think that has been explained. It takes no conspiracy theory to account for everything you ask. But to summarize based on your question:

Why are some BSMs in the same frequency range as police radars and radar detectors? The limited bands of frequencies available to be used by BSMs are set by international regulation, regulations that were not written specifically to BSMs and were written before BSMs were a thing. Those same regulations are also why police radars use the frequencies they use (at least in S, X, and K band, the Ka band police radars fall under different regulations). At the time BSMs started becoming a thing, the K band, also occupied by police radar, was the sweat spot for cost and capability. Today BSMs are starting to move away from K band.

Why are BSMs, in your observation, set strong enough to set off detectors but not strong enough to interfere with legitimate police guns? It is not a matter of "strength", rather it is a confluence of how traditional radar detectors work, the required (in order to do their jobs) waveforms that BSMs use, and the way police radars work. By their basic natures traditional radar detectors respond to the simple presence of energy in the right frequency ranges, BSMs cause energy in one right frequency range, K band. By their basic waveforms (driven by the jobs they do) BSMs are extremely unlikely to interfere with police radars.

T!
Ehh, I think the horse is dead on this one. I'm still going to think that Doctor Detectorhater picked K band to interfere with radar detectors, laughing maniacally while shaking his fist during the presentation, because it amuses me to think so. The real reason probably was cost plus parts availability as you say though, and I think it's great that they're going to move out of K-band because it'll mean less falsing going forward.

But, on the jamming, when you pour power into one specific frequency with an unfiltered transmitter it does bleed down on either side, and it will generate sidelobes where the power is I don't recall exactly what but something like 10dB lower than the main spike's level with another set of spike 10dB lower than that and so on until it reaches the noise floor. It doesn't hit, say, 24GHz but not 24.000000001GHz or 23.9999999GHz. Mind you, I didn't count the 0001s or the 9s to make sure they were 1Hz off. I looked for a picture showing what I am talking about, but wasn't able to find one. But a little power concentrated into one frequency with no filtering will affect quite a lot of bandwidth.
 
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