EV batteries

Deacon

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Ragging on EV's as a whole because you can't do certain things with a Nissan Leaf that it wasn't designed for seems misdirected.
Of course. The problem is being one of the first real options, the weaknesses it had were unfairly then associated by many to be weaknesses necessarily inherent to all EVs. It’s dumb, that’s humanity for you :)

If not for the “cool factor” generated by Tesla, we’d all be worse off.

if a buyer is wary of their range they can balance the two with a PHEV which will likely cover most of their daily routine and still be able to do everything else that they want to.
That’s fine, but few decent PHEVs are widely available, and what options do exist tend to be stingy on EV range and high in price. If I’m going to deal with the complexity and disadvantages of both EV and ICE in one vehicle, I would prefer it to be at least compelling for daily commuter duty in EV-only mode. For my wife who drives about 45 miles on the highway (including stop and go traffic) without considering running errands and such, that would really need to be more range than most PHEVs seem to offer without having to charge to full and drop to empty on a daily basis.

Especially if I’m going to have to invest in overhauling the electrical service, I’d rather go full EV with legit range or just stick to ICE.


So you all are having a great time putting down my Leaf.
No one’s really putting down your Leaf. For its intended use it’s OK. Unfortunately its drawbacks left a lot of people soured on the idea of EVs.

Guess you all would do the same for my AMC AWD Eagle.
If it was an SX/4 and you still had it, I might be interested in buying it from you :)


Also, there's nothing unsafe about pulling the rated load out of a properly installed outlet.
NEC limits continuous loads to 80% of the rated capacity.


I'd say the probability of that failing during an update is fairly high.
You really think the probability is high that an update would happen while you’re in hard charging mode and that such an event would fail and cause an overcurrent condition? Or you just figure it’s maybe theoretically possible, and that’s enough to cause concern?
 

STS-134

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You really think the probability is high that an update would happen while you’re in hard charging mode and that such an event would fail and cause an overcurrent condition? Or you just figure it’s maybe theoretically possible, and that’s enough to cause concern?
Probability of the setting being erased, going unnoticed by the driver, and then causing an overcurrent condition. Worst case scenario, it starts a fire. Best case scenario is, it trips the breaker (and you don't have the full amount of charge you intended to have the next morning).

I gave an example upthread about the causes of the Chernobyl disaster in response to @Boozehound's comment, which were disabling some safety systems, expecting others to work, and not understanding some of the quirks of how that particular reactor operated. But what a lot of people think of when they think of Chernobyl is: why the hell did the USSR build a reactor with a positive void coefficient, graphite tipped control rods, and no containment structure? Which is indeed the real issue: why build something that allows such a scenario to even happen in the first place?

I know what I'm doing with respect to electricity. I can make sure that I won't ever overload a wire, even if it can only carry 20A and I've got a (code violation) 50A breaker on it. Not everyone does. And if I have a rental property listed on Airbnb, the last thing I want is some tenant starting a fire or overheating my wiring because he connected his Tesla UMC to a 14-30 outlet with a 14-50 adapter and a (in my opinion) stupid converter that allows stuff like this to be connected in an unsafe manner. If you're going to do that, at least put a 30A breaker inside the adapter. And even with my knowledge of how electricity works, I would not trust myself to check the charging settings in the vehicle every time I pull into the garage and connect. That's just asking for trouble. If it's once in a blue moon, then I can check the settings as it starts charging but if you do this every day, it starts to become routine, and you start to ignore things. Oh, and the car tries to "remember" these settings by GPS location. What happens if the GPS fails? I have no clue.

A few weeks ago, I was doing an experiment by going from the Tesla connector on the Wall Connector to my TeslaTap to J1772 and then using the J1772 adapter on the car (the TeslaTap is so I can charge the PHEV from Tesla Destination Chargers). The Wall Connector advertises 48A and the TeslaTap device does not modify the J1772 pilot to reduce advertised max current to 40A if it's over 40A, i.e. it's just pin passthrough. But the TeslaTap shouldn't be used at > 40A (wiring limitation). First of all, I sent an email to the guy who builds those things and basically told him "WTF" and second, I set the charge current to 40A in the car so as to not overdraw during my test. Guess what I forgot to do after testing that I didn't catch for 2-3 days? Yep, didn't check the settings. Fortunately, it was set to 40A and the wiring is good for 48A so it wasn't a danger.

If you're an electrician and you want to make something like that by splicing stuff together, then go ahead and do it. But stuff like this shouldn't be sold on Amazon for the masses because the masses are asses.
 
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VXAce

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Of course. The problem is being one of the first real options, the weaknesses it had were unfairly then associated by many to be weaknesses necessarily inherent to all EVs. It’s dumb, that’s humanity for you :)

If not for the “cool factor” generated by Tesla, we’d all be worse off.


That’s fine, but few decent PHEVs are widely available, and what options do exist tend to be stingy on EV range and high in price. If I’m going to deal with the complexity and disadvantages of both EV and ICE in one vehicle, I would prefer it to be at least compelling for daily commuter duty in EV-only mode. For my wife who drives about 45 miles on the highway (including stop and go traffic) without considering running errands and such, that would really need to be more range than most PHEVs seem to offer without having to charge to full and drop to empty on a daily basis.

Especially if I’m going to have to invest in overhauling the electrical service, I’d rather go full EV with legit range or just stick to ICE.
All fair points!

The price has been my sticking point with PHEV and BEV's in general, I can make one work at least part way for my commute (65 miles round), but I'm not one for car loans and super stingy in general. I'm in the same boat as you, I'd rather just go full EV and then have my other gas powered cars for road trips and other stuff.

Savagegeese posted a video recently that illustrated the strange world of car buying too:

For those of us that love cars, not all of our decisions are based on logic or maths. Mathematically and logically a Tesla Model 3 or similar (something in the Korean or Japanese flavor?) would be the perfect car for me but I still like my shitboxes.
 

Deacon

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Mathematically and logically a Tesla Model 3 or similar (something in the Korean or Japanese flavor?) would be the perfect car for me
Probably not economically, though. Any half-way decent used car that’s reliable and is reasonably fuel efficient is probably going to put you way ahead, without even considering insurance and such. It would take a LOT of fuel and maintenance/repairs to make up $30k to $40k.
 

STS-134

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Probably not economically, though. Any half-way decent used car that’s reliable and is reasonably fuel efficient is probably going to put you way ahead, without even considering insurance and such. It would take a LOT of fuel and maintenance/repairs to make up $30k to $40k.
Yeah, but the reason I went full EV was that my wife wanted an EV. Furthermore, if she drove an ICE car, I'd probably be responsible for changing the oil and doing minor maintenance on it; I didn't want to deal with that. While it's true that the extra money you spent on the EV can pay for a lot of other people to do oil changes and other maintenance, there's another factor to consider too: the EV we got has a ~4 second 0-60 time. While you can get that with ICE cars, it often costs you at least an extra $20k or so, and often much more. And one cool thing about EVs is that this type of performance does not cost you unless you are actively using it. These things aren't like ICE cars where a bigger engine equals more internal resistance which equals 30-40% less efficiency during all driving. Big electric motors with decent performance can run efficiently at pretty much every speed and power level, so it's like getting a car that does 0-60 in 4 seconds *and* gets 35-40 mpg. That's virtually unheard of in the ICE world but in the EV world, it's not a tradeoff you have to make because you can have your cake and eat it too.
 

Fireball

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Not as bad as you think.

Sure it is, when you consider that California has regular rolling blackouts every year. Doesn't matter the reason, the fact that they have them is enough.
Post automatically merged:

I'd be willing to bet that you don't drive for 12 to 13 hours straight, and only stop to refuel (and do absolutely nothing else). I don't think it really matters if your EV can go 600 miles without stopping because your bladder cannot. When's the last time you ever drove 12 to 13 hours and only got out of the car to refill, and didn't even step into the gas station to take a piss or get some food?

The problem with the Leaf though is that it lacks range, and charges far too slowly (when you only have 200 or so miles of range and it takes 45 minutes to get to 80%, that's generally not acceptable). On the other hand if we get to the point where EVs have 500 miles of range from 100% and can charge to 40-60% in 15 minutes, then you're talking about stopping every 200-250 miles for 15 minutes to either use the restroom or get some food, etc. This is better than gasoline on most trips because you shouldn't have to make a special stop to refuel (since the car can refuel while you do other things). And should you stop for slightly longer than 15 minutes, say to shop or have a nicer sit-down meal as opposed to just grabbing fast food, that puts you at over 80% charge and you can go another 400 miles without stopping.
Dude, if it takes you an hour to take a leak you need to go get fingered by your doctor because you have a serious prostate problem. It takes 5 minutes to take a leak and wash your hands, and a couple of more to get a drink and a little food suitable for the car. It takes about 5 minutes to pump 15 gallons, as I'm one of those guys who fills up at the quarter tank mark so as to not overheat the fuel pump. If I stopped to shop or have a sit down meal every 15 minutes, my EV wouldn't be able to get me to my destination because it would be weighted down by a bunch of useless crap (seriously, who goes shopping at a fueling station?) plus my now-600lb ass from all those large meals.

On a more serious note, if these aluminum batteries live up to the promise, it's going to put EVs into the sights of a lot more people, myself included. Not only will they make a full charge comparable to filling a gas tank, but they won't need the heat management that Li batteries need so that's another 80lbs of electrical gear not being carried in the car. And, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is on this - as I've mentioned before I'm building a custom pickup that will be exactly what I want in a vehicle. I was going to put a 3-link rear suspension in it, but now I'm putting an IRS out back. The reason - when batteries do take the charge better and charging stations are more common, an IRS will make converting to electric practically into a weekend project because all the hard work will already be done.
 
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STS-134

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Sure it is, when you consider that California has regular rolling blackouts every year. Doesn't matter the reason, the fact that they have them is enough.
Um...no. Where do you get your information? That is factually inaccurate. Let me know so I can avoid that source because they're obviously full of crap. There were zero rolling blackouts between 2001 and 2020 -- 19 years without a single stage 3 emergency. https://www.npr.org/2020/08/15/9027...ckouts-since-2001-as-heat-wave-bakes-western-

Dude, if it takes you an hour to take a leak you need to go get fingered by your doctor because you have a serious prostate problem. It takes 5 minutes to take a leak and wash your hands, and a couple of more to get a drink and a little food suitable for the car.
Not an hour, 15-20 minutes to get to 50-60% SoC from close to 0%. And if I ever buy food, I eat it OUTSIDE of the car. I don't know about you, but I like the interior of my car WITHOUT food crumbs all over it. Now the issue is that if I stop at a refueling station and pump gas, that takes about 5 minutes. THEN I need to make another stop to get fast food, which takes about 5 minutes to get the food, and another 10 minutes to eat it before getting back on the road again. Which is 20 minutes. So if I had a car that could get 300 miles of range in 20 minutes, it wouldn't cost me any additional time. We're more than halfway there already. As it is, I can get about 180-200 miles of range in 20 minutes.
 

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But what a lot of people think of when they think of Chernobyl is: why the hell did the USSR build a reactor with a positive void coefficient, graphite tipped control rods, and no containment structure? Which is indeed the real issue: why build something that allows such a scenario to even happen in the first place?
A lot of people have no idea the cause of the Chernobyl disaster. You hit on some of them. WTF, we don't build nuclear reactors without containment vessels for a reason! Any truly smart fifth grader can explain why. But oh no, building a nuclear reactor to just sit unprotected in a building isn't stupid enough, really. Why stop there when you can design the reactor in such a manner that makes it far from the most stable patient in the asylum? Why do that? Because we want to show what big boys we are! We need electricity but we also want to build a bunch of nuclear weapons. Damn, we don't have the economy to support that. But heyyyy, we can design this reactor to produce lots of plutonium while it's generating our electricity! We can't afford to build a proper containment vessel and this design really needs one but we "need" that plutonium and a more stable design wouldn't make it as quickly.

And comrades, we all know we have to match those scary Yanks. You know, those guys in the West who were the sole nuclear armed nation for 4 years and didn't bother with nuking or invading us. Because the post WWII American public had such a huge appetite for invading Russia, right? The problem for the USSR is that they had no hope of truly competing economically so they did stupid shit like Chernobyl. They often got away with it. Aside from stuff like this I salute the Russian people for their cleverness and ingenuity. They had a substantially smaller population and a fraction of our economy yet they were a formidable and worthy opponent in the Cold War.

The Soviet Union fell and still no one over here was interested in invading Russia. Maybe those hard lessons received by Napoleon and Hitler were instructional. From the beginning we preferred to trade over fighting. Imagine that.

Also, I have zero problems getting 300 miles out of my Camry running 100-125 sustained. It may get just over 20 at that speed but the tank holds 17 gallons and has a bit of reserve. My old Corolla won't run 125, it tops out at 115 and it can also knock off 300 miles easily at a sustained 100+ and that's about the only way to get it under 30MPG although not by much. @ARkaband will that sweet little Honda give you over 300 miles on a tank sustaining 100-125?

As for food, if you pack or order smart and eat carefully there's no reason to get crumbs all over the car. I've had exactly zero issues with foods like blueberries, nuts, celery, and chicken sandwiches in the car.
 
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STS-134

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A lot of people have no idea the cause of the Chernobyl disaster. You hit on some of them. WTF, we don't build nuclear reactors without containment vessels for a reason!
Sure, and on that note, there's a reason why we shouldn't build adapters that change 30A receptacles to 50A receptacles without 30A breakers in them. Ideally, they'd also have some sort of current monitor and if the current stays above 24A for > 3 hours, it cuts power due to it being a continuous load over 80%.

If I ask any electrician to install a NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage and connect it to a 30A breaker with 10 AWG wire, no electrician is going to do that job if he wants to keep his license. But somehow it's okay to install a 14-30 outlet and slap an adapter on it that changes it to 14-50? That's insane.
 

Boozehound

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Sure, and on that note, there's a reason why we shouldn't build adapters that change 30A receptacles to 50A receptacles without 30A breakers in them.
This. I wouldn't even consider that. But I wouldn't lose any sleep over doing it with a tested 30A breaker. Suffice it to say I wouldn't use a Federal Pacific breaker under any circumstances! Never seen those kind of problems with Square D, GE, or Siemens.

Ideally, they'd also have some sort of current monitor and if the current stays above 24A for > 3 hours, it cuts power due to it being a continuous load over 80%.
Not this. How do you define continuous? When I install a reasonable length of 10AWG wire for a proper 30A circuit and use proper plugs/receptacles on the other end I expect it to deliver that 30A with minimal drop and heat buildup. That gauge of wire can safely carry significantly more but there's a reason it's specified at 30A. That's conservative enough for me. Nothing I've designed or built has overheated or caught fire.


If I ask any electrician to install a NEMA 14-50 outlet in my garage and connect it to a 30A breaker with 10 AWG wire, no electrician is going to do that job if he wants to keep his license.
100% in agreement here. I'm not a licensed electrician and you couldn't pay me under the table to do it. But if you're a friend I might install an outlet for you sans permit. If you want 50A you will buy 6AWG or count me out.

I also replaced my hot water heater without pulling a permit. No shit, really! Like 14 years ago and nothing has leaked, burst, or caught on fire! And it's a NG fired unit. The only thing scarier than this was riding my bike without a helmet. Since I was a kid. Don't know how I survived without Big Brother.

@Fireball please don't wish a finger banging on STS! Maybe he supports toll taxing for congestion but we don't want him suffering such an indignity.
 

Deacon

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Yeah, but the reason I went full EV was that my wife wanted an EV.
Sometimes that’s all the economic input you need.


It takes 5 minutes to take a leak and wash your hands, and a couple of more to get a drink and a little food suitable for the car.
Assuming ideal conditions, I guess I can see a trip inside to the bathroom taking only 5 minutes. They’re not always ideal conditions, and it’s not always limited to number one. But what is this about 2 minutes to locate, decide on, prepare, and purchase a meal? You just grabbing a bag of chips from a roadside vending machine? Fast food isn’t that fast. Even had station burritos take time to nuke. I think to make a point you’re veering off into exaggeration or otherwise getting a little overzealous to defend your point for its own sake.

seriously, who goes shopping at a fueling station?
I think the whole point has to do with stopping and smelling the roses a bit, even if it’s only for 10 or 15 minutes. In this theoretical road trip everyone’s so concerned about, rarely is a cannonball run where a few minutes here and there makes a difference. My wife’s walnut bladder has over time tempered my push to plow ahead at all costs.

In an EV, you’re not chained to a convenience store like you are with ICE cars. On these amazing road trips to see the sights, you’ll likely find yourself stopped at a downtown library or museum, maybe a shopping mall or university campus or even just some Walmart where you can go grab some snacks and drinks and a nerf gun for your nephew you’re going to see, spend a couple minutes in the clearance aisle in case anything actually worth having jumps out at you. Whatever it is, the nasty bathroom and tiny selection of overpriced beer for the cooler isn’t something you have to endure in as little time as possible so that you can get the heck out immediately to make record time.

So maybe even if you do get whatever fast food you like that’s nearby, you sit for a few and eat those burgers or tacos or whatever it is, even if it takes 10 minutes to wolf it down. Or maybe you take 15 or 20 minutes and actually get a chance to enjoy it. Or maybe a little longer and enjoy a local restaurant instead of the usual global chains. Regardless, you’re charging the whole time. Afterward you can stretch your legs a bit, have a smoke, wash your hands, check RDF for notifications, whatever it is you like to do for a few minute if you really still need it.

The point is that a race for a 15 minute stop instead of a 25 minute stop isn’t that big a deal. And you can go ahead and squeeze some juice into the battery while your wife disappears for 10 minutes waiting in line to use the bathroom for the millionth time this trip.


But somehow it's okay to install a 14-30 outlet and slap an adapter on it that changes it to 14-50? That's insane.
I’m not as worried about it, because if the in-wall infrastructure can handle 30A fine, then you’re either going to pull less than that anyway or trip the breaker, but neither is going to cause a fire. I think it would be great to have breakers in the adapters themselves, but for a simple adapter that’s generally considered overkill, and nobody wants to pay more than they’ve been convinced is absolutely necessary.

For my 5th wheel travel trailer, it has a 30A hookup, with adapters stowed on board to fit 50A and 15A plugs (maybe 20A, I forget). If I plug into a 15A service, I can’t run the A/C, but everything else should be fine (maybe have to leave the water heater on propane instead of electricity, not sure, maybe not the microwave but we hardly ever use that), because I’ll end up trying to draw more than the 15A breaker will handle. But nothing is catching fire. If I plug into a 50A service, I can run everything. If I try to pull more than that somehow, the main service breaker in the RV itself would be the first to trip. If there’s a dead short the outside service breaker will trip anyway. Some of these adapters are available with their own breakers integrated, by the way, along with some people who’ll love to sell you an expensive surge suppressor hookup in case your wallet is so far it’s causing your brain to stop working.

Not this. How do you define continuous? When I install a reasonable length of 10AWG wire for a proper 30A circuit and use proper plugs/receptacles on the other end I expect it to deliver that 30A with minimal drop and heat buildup. That gauge of wire can safely carry significantly more but there's a reason it's specified at 30A. That's conservative enough for me. Nothing I've designed or built has overheated or caught fire.
This has been addressed. See below.

Also, there's nothing unsafe about pulling the rated load out of a properly installed outlet.
NEC limits continuous loads to 80% of the rated capacity.

PS In Article 100, they define it as a load where the maximum current is expected to continue for three hours or more. That’s why you’ll find space heaters limited to about a 1500W rating instead of 1800W+ for example unless they’re lying.
 
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Boozehound

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Sometimes that’s all the economic input you need.



Assuming ideal conditions, I guess I can see a trip inside to the bathroom taking only 5 minutes. They’re not always ideal conditions, and it’s not always limited to number one. But what is this about 2 minutes to locate, decide on, prepare, and purchase a meal? You just grabbing a bag of chips from a roadside vending machine? Fast food isn’t that fast. Even had station burritos take time to nuke. I think to make a point you’re veering off into exaggeration or otherwise getting a little overzealous to defend your point for its own sake.


I think the whole point has to do with stopping and smelling the roses a bit, even if it’s only for 10 or 15 minutes. In this theoretical road trip everyone’s so concerned about, rarely is a cannonball run where a few minutes here and there makes a difference. My wife’s walnut bladder has over time tempered my push to plow ahead at all costs.

In an EV, you’re not chained to a convenience store like you are with ICE cars. On these amazing road trips to see the sights, you’ll likely find yourself stopped at a downtown library or museum, maybe a shopping mall or university campus or even just some Walmart where you can go grab some snacks and drinks and a nerf gun for your nephew you’re going to see, spend a couple minutes in the clearance aisle in case anything actually worth having jumps out at you. Whatever it is, the nasty bathroom and tiny selection of overpriced beer for the cooler isn’t something you have to endure in as little time as possible so that you can get the heck out immediately to make record time.

So maybe even if you do get whatever fast food you like that’s nearby, you sit for a few and eat those burgers or tacos or whatever it is, even if it takes 10 minutes to wolf it down. Or maybe you take 15 or 20 minutes and actually get a chance to enjoy it. Or maybe a little longer and enjoy a local restaurant instead of the usual global chains. Regardless, you’re charging the whole time. Afterward you can stretch your legs a bit, have a smoke, wash your hands, check RDF for notifications, whatever it is you like to do for a few minute if you really still need it.

The point is that a race for a 15 minute stop instead of a 25 minute stop isn’t that big a deal. And you can go ahead and squeeze some juice into the battery while your wife disappears for 10 minutes waiting in line to use the bathroom for the millionth time this trip.



I’m not as worried about it, because if the in-wall infrastructure can handle 30A fine, then you’re either going to pull less than that anyway or trip the breaker, but neither is going to cause a fire. I think it would be great to have breakers in the adapters themselves, but for a simple adapter that’s generally considered overkill, and nobody wants to pay more than they’ve been convinced is absolutely necessary.

For my 5th wheel travel trailer, it has a 30A hookup, with adapters stowed on board to fit 50A and 15A plugs (maybe 20A, I forget). If I plug into a 15A service, I can’t run the A/C, but everything else should be fine (maybe have to leave the water heater on propane instead of electricity, not sure, maybe not the microwave but we hardly ever use that), because I’ll end up trying to draw more than the 15A breaker will handle. But nothing is catching fire. If I plug into a 50A service, I can run everything. If I try to pull more than that somehow, the main service breaker in the RV itself would be the first to trip. If there’s a dead short the outside service breaker will trip anyway. Some of these adapters are available with their own breakers integrated, by the way, along with some people who’ll love to sell you an expensive surge suppressor hookup in case your wallet is so far it’s causing your brain to stop working.


This has been addressed. See below.



PS In Article 100, they define it as a load where the maximum current is expected to continue for three hours or more. That’s why you’ll find space heaters limited to about a 1500W rating instead of 1800W+ for example unless they’re lying.
Ok, well continuous means 30 minutes to one person, 3 hours to another, and 2 days to another. Yet none of those are actually continuous. For S&Gs I'm going to load up a receptacle to its rated current and see how long it takes to reach max temperature, what that temp is, and maybe push it above and beyond to see how much it takes to actually get dangerous. Can't imagine this happening well before 3 hours. Can't imagine the wire or receptacle melting or igniting at max load for a month if everything has been installed correctly and nothing is defective. I want a fuse or breaker on a high power adapter like what is being discussed here.

Some road trips are about the journey. Others are about the destination. I can't imagine taking more than 5 minutes to fuel. Often it doesn't take that long. For all this coffee smelling and smoking you're still going to need a place with a charger to do all that. I'm with you on the local restaurant preference. But will they have a charger? Will the place with the clearance aisle? Right now roadtripping an EV is somewhere between a learning curve and a pain in the rear depending on what you have and where you're going. Hopefully new tech will improve this and maybe we'll get more affordable options even when the subsidies subside. I'm all for it so long as it isn't mandatory. Freedom and choices are good.
 

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So you all are having a great time putting down my Leaf.
Guess you all would do the same for my AMC AWD Eagle.
What I needed @the time, what I COULD afford @ that time.
it could have been a gremlin
Probability of the setting being erased, going unnoticed by the driver, and then causing an overcurrent condition. Worst case scenario, it starts a fire. Best case scenario is, it trips the breaker (and you don't have the full amount of charge you intended to have the next morning).

I gave an example upthread about the causes of the Chernobyl disaster in response to @Boozehound's comment, which were disabling some safety systems, expecting others to work, and not understanding some of the quirks of how that particular reactor operated. But what a lot of people think of when they think of Chernobyl is: why the hell did the USSR build a reactor with a positive void coefficient, graphite tipped control rods, and no containment structure? Which is indeed the real issue: why build something that allows such a scenario to even happen in the first place?

I know what I'm doing with respect to electricity. I can make sure that I won't ever overload a wire, even if it can only carry 20A and I've got a (code violation) 50A breaker on it. Not everyone does. And if I have a rental property listed on Airbnb, the last thing I want is some tenant starting a fire or overheating my wiring because he connected his Tesla UMC to a 14-30 outlet with a 14-50 adapter and a (in my opinion) stupid converter that allows stuff like this to be connected in an unsafe manner. If you're going to do that, at least put a 30A breaker inside the adapter. And even with my knowledge of how electricity works, I would not trust myself to check the charging settings in the vehicle every time I pull into the garage and connect. That's just asking for trouble. If it's once in a blue moon, then I can check the settings as it starts charging but if you do this every day, it starts to become routine, and you start to ignore things. Oh, and the car tries to "remember" these settings by GPS location. What happens if the GPS fails? I have no clue.

A few weeks ago, I was doing an experiment by going from the Tesla connector on the Wall Connector to my TeslaTap to J1772 and then using the J1772 adapter on the car (the TeslaTap is so I can charge the PHEV from Tesla Destination Chargers). The Wall Connector advertises 48A and the TeslaTap device does not modify the J1772 pilot to reduce advertised max current to 40A if it's over 40A, i.e. it's just pin passthrough. But the TeslaTap shouldn't be used at > 40A (wiring limitation). First of all, I sent an email to the guy who builds those things and basically told him "WTF" and second, I set the charge current to 40A in the car so as to not overdraw during my test. Guess what I forgot to do after testing that I didn't catch for 2-3 days? Yep, didn't check the settings. Fortunately, it was set to 40A and the wiring is good for 48A so it wasn't a danger.

If you're an electrician and you want to make something like that by splicing stuff together, then go ahead and do it. But stuff like this shouldn't be sold on Amazon for the masses because the masses are asses.
you are a font of misinformation. of all the hundreds of thousands of home chargers that have been installed there have been few if any incidents like the ones you are conjuring up. most people have their home electrical systems installed/upgraded by licensed electricians who are well versed in what level of breakers and wiring are required.
the only dangerous situations are when some home brew guy tries to make an inadequate home system
 

STS-134

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This. I wouldn't even consider that. But I wouldn't lose any sleep over doing it with a tested 30A breaker. Suffice it to say I wouldn't use a Federal Pacific breaker under any circumstances! Never seen those kind of problems with Square D, GE, or Siemens.
Yeah but the lifespan of a breaker is estimated to be around 30 years. Breakers can eventually fail. If they do fail, you can easily start a fire. This house had a 50 year old panel and breakers of unknown age when I got my second EV. There's multiple reasons why I just replaced the entire panel and all breakers and upgraded the service line to 400A, and that is one of them.

Sometimes that’s all the economic input you need.
Yep.
Assuming ideal conditions, I guess I can see a trip inside to the bathroom taking only 5 minutes. They’re not always ideal conditions, and it’s not always limited to number one. But what is this about 2 minutes to locate, decide on, prepare, and purchase a meal? You just grabbing a bag of chips from a roadside vending machine? Fast food isn’t that fast. Even had station burritos take time to nuke. I think to make a point you’re veering off into exaggeration or otherwise getting a little overzealous to defend your point for its own sake.


I think the whole point has to do with stopping and smelling the roses a bit, even if it’s only for 10 or 15 minutes. In this theoretical road trip everyone’s so concerned about, rarely is a cannonball run where a few minutes here and there makes a difference. My wife’s walnut bladder has over time tempered my push to plow ahead at all costs.

In an EV, you’re not chained to a convenience store like you are with ICE cars.
The big advantage of having an EV is that you can charge when you're doing other things, like using the restroom or getting food. It is typically not possible to park at a gas pump and leave it running while you run inside a convenience store to get food. But right now, the big disadvantage of having an EV is that if you are trying to save time, then instead of being chained to convenience stores, you're chained to DC fast chargers instead. There are a lot of interesting places you could stop, but if there's not a DCFC in the parking lot, well, that sucks. So DC fast chargers need to get built in almost every parking lot that gets used on road trips in order to make this situation better. That's going to take time.

Ok, well continuous means 30 minutes to one person, 3 hours to another, and 2 days to another.
The term "continuous load" is not up for debate. "Continuous load" is defined in NEC Article 100's definitions: https://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/70_08_ROP_Draft.pdf

Page 70-13: Continuous Load. A load where the maximum current is expected to continue for 3 hours or more

Furthermore, page 70-38:
II. Branch-Circuit Rating
210.19 Conductors — Minimum Ampacity and Size.
(A) Branch Circuits Not More Than 600 Volts
(1) General.
Branch-circuit conductors shall have an ampacity not less than the maximum load to be served. Where a branch circuit supplies continuous loads or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the minimum branch-circuit conductor size, before the application of any adjustment or correction factors, shall have an allowable ampacity not less than the noncontinuous load plus 125 percent of the continuous load.


But of course, the people who wrote the NEC were well aware that some people could potentially argue that certain stuff is not a continuous load, depending on how it's used. So they also tell you what you should consider a "continuous load", including water heaters with a capacity of 125 gallons or less, ice melting equipment, space heating equipment, etc. And page 70-533 in Article 625 has the piece relevant to this discussion:

III. Equipment Construction
625.14 Rating. Electric vehicle supply equipment shall have sufficient rating to supply the load served. For the purposes of this article, electric vehicle charging loads shall be considered to be continuous loads.

That's pretty clear.
 

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it could have been a gremlin

you are a font of misinformation. of all the hundreds of thousands of home chargers that have been installed there have been few if any incidents like the ones you are conjuring up.
Most vehicles sold only have 16A or 32A OBC. Most EVSEs sold only go up to 32A. That would be the limiting factor at this point. 32A might not be enough to trip a 30A breaker and probably isn't enough to start a fire, and the relatively short charge duration (since most vehicles right now have smaller batteries) would mean that the wiring isn't subjected to that load for long periods of time. Put another EVSE on that adapter or get another vehicle with a bigger battery and higher ampacity OBC and you could easily overload the wiring. And that's likely to happen months to years from now when the person who bought the thing probably forgot about what that thing does and what the ampacity of the receptacle types it converts is.

As an example, for my PHEV, I have an EVSE and prior to my panel upgrade, it was connected to a NEMA 6-50. The PHEV's OBC is 16A. I discovered that the previous owners (who installed the 6-50 outlet) had double-tapped the air conditioner breaker to supply the outlet. The 16A drawn by the PHEV was insufficient to trip the 40A breaker even when the air conditioner was running (AC consumes about 15A). Wanna guess what would have happened if I connected the Tesla to that EVSE on a hot day prior to doing the panel and service line upgrade and getting rid of the mess that the previous owners left behind? In fact, I almost tripped the breaker when my friend showed up with his Honda Clarity (32A OBC) and I plugged in his car on a reasonably warm day. The air conditioning turned on about 20 minutes after he left (at this point, I didn't even know about the double tapped breaker). So the previous owners did something stupid, then failed to inform me about what they did. I should have asked the electrician what type of wiring he found in the wall for that 6-50 before he replaced it with 4 gauge wiring for a 14-50; if it was actually only good for 40A total, then that would have been a code violation if connected to electric vehicle supply equipment, although in this case, wouldn't have been a danger because my EVSE is only 32A. But if I were to rent this place out and someone shows up with a 40A EVSE, what happens?

That's why we have electrical codes. You can't expect knowledge about these stupid quirky things that people do to their houses to spontaneously pass from one owner to another. Do you really think the little old lady down the street knows what the "30" in 14-30 and "50" in 14-50 means? I don't think she'd even know what those outlet types are called, just that the adapter makes it possible to plug one piece of equipment into an outlet that it wouldn't otherwise fit into.
 
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Lars36

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@kort Gremlin?
No, I placed an order through the dealer for a AWD AMC Eagle Station Wagon.
Special order, had bench seats installed in the front for work.
Wasn't my 1st rodeo ordering a new car.
 

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Ok, well continuous means 30 minutes to one person, 3 hours to another, and 2 days to another. Yet none of those are actually continuous.
No, as I pointed out, it’s explicitly defined by the NEC, knowing full well that homeowners are going to do “their own risk assessment” based on their own limited understanding and experience and often be unaware of the complete picture of what’s going on in their walls. The limits of a single person’s imagination is insufficient to guarantee safety.

But will they have a charger? Will the place with the clearance aisle?
Sometimes. That’s why EV’s generally integrate known charging stations into their navigation so that you can check your route and destination and make any adjustments and discoveries if needed. Then again it doesn’t really matter if someone makes a big deal about one aspect or another that convinced them to choose differently regardless. People are used to the strengths and weaknesses of ICE vehicles and have long since accepted those experiences as just part of life. They’re comfortable with it and feel in control. You tweak that list of strengths and weaknesses for EV’s, and they start looking for holes to poke in what does them is the uncertain or the unknown.

The good thing is that as EV tech (especially batteries and charging speed and infrastructure) continue to improve, the areas where those holes can attempt to be poked will continue to shrink. We’ll probably all be better off, eventually. For now I’m fine with spending another few years with ICE, personally. My F250 will probably not be legitimately replaceable with an EV version for true truck duty (such as pulling the 5th wheel across the country) for a long time anyway.
 

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No, as I pointed out, it’s explicitly defined by the NEC, knowing full well that homeowners are going to do “their own risk assessment” based on their own limited understanding and experience and often be unaware of the complete picture of what’s going on in their walls. The limits of a single person’s imagination is insufficient to guarantee safety.


Sometimes. That’s why EV’s generally integrate known charging stations into their navigation so that you can check your route and destination and make any adjustments and discoveries if needed. Then again it doesn’t really matter if someone makes a big deal about one aspect or another that convinced them to choose differently regardless. People are used to the strengths and weaknesses of ICE vehicles and have long since accepted those experiences as just part of life. They’re comfortable with it and feel in control. You tweak that list of strengths and weaknesses for EV’s, and they start looking for holes to poke in what does them is the uncertain or the unknown.

The good thing is that as EV tech (especially batteries and charging speed and infrastructure) continue to improve, the areas where those holes can attempt to be poked will continue to shrink. We’ll probably all be better off, eventually. For now I’m fine with spending another few years with ICE, personally. My F250 will probably not be legitimately replaceable with an EV version for true truck duty (such as pulling the 5th wheel across the country) for a long time anyway.
Most people don't have the first clue about electricity. Many will leave it alone and hire someone who does know. Then you have the wild cards.

I agree with you in a previous statement about laziness. People don't want to have to think anything out.

While I don't poke holes for the sake of it, I too am sticking with ICE for a bit. Tesla has already advanced EV tech beyond where I thought it would be at this point. I welcome further improvements in the batteries, vehicles, and infrastructure. This shouldn't even require tax dollars given that the charging stations are doubling the going rate for electricity plus whatever gotcha fees they can sneak in. There's no denying the forward acceleration performance of a Tesla. Hope it gets more affordable.
 

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Then again it doesn’t really matter if someone makes a big deal about one aspect or another that convinced them to choose differently regardless. People are used to the strengths and weaknesses of ICE vehicles and have long since accepted those experiences as just part of life. They’re comfortable with it and feel in control. You tweak that list of strengths and weaknesses for EV’s, and they start looking for holes to poke in what does them is the uncertain or the unknown.
I discover new weaknesses with ICE vehicles occasionally that I never even thought about, the longer I own an EV. As an example, my wife had purchased some chocolate at a grocery store, and everyone knows that you don't want to leave chocolate in a car on a hot day because it'll melt, even if you're only going into a store for 10 minutes. But wait, I thought...we have an EV. It's got a huge battery and I'm not even going to use most of it. We're less than 10 miles from home, and I've got almost 200 miles of range in the battery right now. So I'm just going to leave the air conditioning on and set to 72F. The same goes for road trips or when I go on a hike and keeping the thermoelectric cooler running: if I put the thing in Sentry Mode, it'll keep the 12V outlet powered up, and I can keep the cooler running. And I don't have to worry about running down a dinky 12V starter battery because it uses the main drive battery to power everything. The thermoelectric cooler cools to 40F below ambient so if I want a cold drink at 45F when I get back from my hike, I can set the car's AC to 85F and just let everything run while I am gone.
 

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Found this on another forum I frequent.


Aluminum ion batteries, which apparently charge 60 times faster than lithium ion, hold 3 times the energy per pound, won't kill Junior when he eats one (they are also looking at button batteries) while not being toxic to the environment. They also don't overheat and won't explode, and can be made to fit existing EV form factors. So, picture a Tesla with a battery pack that weighs half as much but has twice the range, since not only would you need fewer batteries you'd also not need the existing heating/cooling gear for the battery pack. The batteries are also not temp sensitive like lithium, keeping pretty much the same charge from 0F to whatever temp on the upper side.

This would make infrastructure the last obstacle to wide scale EV adoption, we still need to be able to generate and deliver the power all those EVs need. And for that, I say start building breeder nuclear reactors across the country. I'd even support building one in my back yard (not literally, of course, but in the small town I live in.) Breeders don't generate the waste because the fuel is reprocessed and used again for up to 500 years, although we'd need to fund research starting now on what is done with the old fuel when it can no longer be reprocessed. If this aluminum oxide battery pans out and they did the breeders, we could be an all EV nation inside 20 years.
Waste products from fast-breeder reactors are problematic in regards to the weapons grade plutonium made available from this source. Mankind's Faustian bargain (Manhattan Project) & temptation of use from the Birth of the Atomic age is our burden for eternity or until the Sun becomes a RED GIANT.

Over 60yrs ago Alvin M. Weinberg gave us the Holy Grail of a much safer type Nuclear (Thorium) Reactor ! Current Gen III reactors will be replaced by the new Gen. IV types being introduced.
The 1st Natrium MSR (Modular Small Reactors) is approved & will be built in Wyoming replacing a Coal Fired plant.

The hydro-carbon age is winding down & must end if humankind is to survive on this planet. Near complete worldwide EV adoption is quite possible, but not before an order of magnitude improvement via "Electrification" takes place in both the developed & undeveloped countries/nations. The U.S. electric grid needs vast improvement,too !

To do so requires massive quantities of Copper metal today & that's the rub, all the easy high grade (>6% +) deposits have been mined.

Very interesting/educational cut/paste ~30min. vid of advantages of safe Thorium Reactor:
 
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