Is VR planning to address the K-band reactivity problem?

BIGGER Dave

Learning to Fly
Beginner User
Joined
Mar 6, 2020
Messages
122
Reaction score
278
Location
One Hour From Boston Massachusetts USA!
In my particular tri-state area (Massachusetts, Rhode Island and Connecticut), I see a LOT of K Band. In Massachusetts, about 2/3 of the counties run K Band, Connecticut uses K Band in about 1/3 of the areas, and in Rhode Island a whopping 90% of the state runs K Band. Needless to say, I’m anxious for V1 to release an update that addresses the K Band issue. Until them, I take it slooooow.....
 

cihkal

Infracting & banning truth loses in the end 😘
Premium Plus
Lifetime Premium
Corgi Lovers
Advanced User
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Messages
4,390
Reaction score
8,667
Here’s my take on what the K band reactivity issue is with the Gen 2. On my Gen 1, K based BSMs tend to be 1-3 max strength and pretty quick, depending on passing speed, direction, etc. With a Gen 2, these signals are better suppressed through some basic strength reduction, from what I’ve seen and others. Had another recent chance to try a Gen 2 in a K area and I don’t like it. While current firmware seems to nix the low strength K falses, it also now takes a legit 3-4 bar K and thinks it’s a 1-2 bar. So yeah... WTF? You boys still think it’s some kind of other magic filtering they’re doing? Doesn’t look like it to me, but what do I know. I’m accustomed to my Gen 1 for the BSM noise levels and when I saw what I’d previously think was a BSM be an actual cop... no thanks! K just simply isn’t good enough at the moment on the Gen 2.
Me and the boys have to say, uh yeah we do 😉. It's not magic, it's characterizing signals!

I ain't upset with ya feeling like K just simply isn't good enough, for you, at the moment when talking about the G2. And I'm glad westwind is pushing this topic because it can sometimes motivate a company if the circumstances are right. It's also educational for everyone!

I wanna share two things, which is just more info to keep in mind when evaluating the situation. By all means, call the good, good, and the bad, well.. bad. Fair is fair!

The first, folks should consider the idea that the V1's ramp is informative in the sense that it gives you a better idea on if you're being targeted for the kill. Seriously, if you get a nice clean detection against a LEO I would pay very close attention to the ramp and when you see the LEO painting your butt. Don't take my word for it, give it a try! I drive through the long city of Chicago, which has a major highway running right through it. Parallel to my drive each day I see a "Your Speed is" sign on the adjacent city street that's kinda wide open - hence the sign. My G2 picks it up not that far out, but the arrow transition is perfect. It also never goes more than half bars because that sign ain't targeting the highway. I'm not basing my opinion on this one experience, and I see the behavior on K and Ka. Easier to hear on K due to the solid tone when the G2 is telling you, it thinks you're getting painted.

Ramp-up is more informative than I think some know, but by no means is the G2 perfect on all K guns. It's weak on K I/O with some threats at the moment.. for sure! At least what I gather if the info is accurate.

As for characterizing signals... we see basic hinting of that just by members alone now, mentioning the I/O thing is gun specific. That kinda got my interest. Beyond that, the Mazda CX-5 is a great example of how there's more going on than just basic strength reduction.

Because I ask myself how can the V1G2 do this against a CX-5 (in all bogies mode):
V1G2 vs. CX-5 (the correct CX-5 gen)

show up to the testing course and do this:
The Falcon and the Sun Devil

all while we know the CX-5 has an emitted signal that looks like this, in one form:
IMG_3948.jpg


...It's because they're characterizing signals. They even say it, but beyond all this it can be gathered based on the HPI RD patent and modern compressive receiver technology; for the curious see my signature. By no means is VR doing a perfect job, or that someone else couldn't show up and do it better. For sure! But VR is off to a good start and thankfully, their design is gulping in and transforming data in real-time (digital image of the threat environment w/ amplitude, feq., time) coupled with the implementation of phone-based firmware upgrades. It's a work in progress like any engineering project, but they have a nice track record of continuously improving their product! 🇺🇸 Almost 30 years with the Gen 1 I think? And they've streamlined the hell out of it with the G2, slapping a FPGA in there as well!

I would guess it can only get better, and maybe even leaps and bounds better. Who's knows, but hopefully they do their best for their customers at this sweet price point.
 
Last edited:

LouG

PSL +5
Intermediate User
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
5,121
Reaction score
8,017
Man, it sure is swell that you can assume every single 1-bar alert is real and brake for each and every one! :bravo:

Did I say braking? I don't do that. And, we don't have mobile K, but we do have low power K cams.
 

SwankPeRFection

✅ Whatever chupakabra.
Banned User
Corgi Lovers
General User
Joined
Mar 31, 2020
Messages
1,722
Reaction score
1,888
Yeah, this is how your characterized signal concept is showing up on the G2 vs G1 testing I did again with a newer one about a couple of weeks ago. G1 against cop pretty much full signal because he was running I/O K and not too selective because it’s a new 35 zone and everyone is still doing 45, so he just want the highest hit most of the time. With the G2 the same signal in the same circumstance was 1 bar less or sometime 2. What?! That’s bullshit! And here’s why... I’m used to seeing low signals K and depending on what my circumstance is and what I’m visually aware of, it’s usually BSM and while I’m weary of it, I don’t slam on the brakes. I’ve gotten used to the ramp or lack thereof on K BSM and the weak signal. Anything more than that or a different and quicker engagement and I know it’s legit K. If I apply that learned pattern to K band on the G2, I’m screwed. Legit K simply isn’t earning enough. I’m dampened BIG TIME. That’s the damn problem. So if the G2 was so good as characterizing K, then it would warm the same way for legit K as the G1 does and not alert if it was a BSM. Problem is, whatever they’re doing has either both hurt range and signs strength or they’re simply reporting it at a lower strength. What I’m seeing is they took the same level K hit and lowered its reporting strength and because of this, it’s hurt K performance. It’s almost like I got a hell of a boost on Ka and K it’s looking through a filter that killing off it’s strength. I don’t know if it’s artificial or what. It’s not really a range thing. It’s almost like the volume adjustment on the V1. They took the highest level and lowered it and now the lower level is inherent lower than you can hear, so you’re blind to the same distance same power level of K. I don’t know if that makes sense, but that’s the best way I can explain it. The problem is I don’t know if this is a detection limitation or a reporting one.
 

JerardSpeed

Learning to Drive
General User
Joined
Dec 28, 2020
Messages
15
Reaction score
28
@westwind77 I share your sentiment. I actually almost got C/Owned on the Pike the other night at PSL +30. Trooper was on the other side of the road with K band shooting backwards. V1G2 did not even alert until I was literally on top of him. I'm probably very lucky that we were separated by a barrier.

It's not just me being used to another brand's ramp up. I've been using the detector for three months now and I'm pretty damn used to how it functions. It's just not a reliable performer on K band, be it I/O or any tough C/O encounter. I get that it's for the BSM filtering, but until you actually face the real threat of K band every day, it's tough to quantify how much the V1G2 is under performing in this area right now. It was actually a relief to run it in upstate NY this weekend and see how amazing it is against Ka band. The reality is that a majority of people just don't have to worry about K band in any meaningful way, so I get why they made this sacrifice.
I was using the new G2 for a few weeks but called for relief in the bull pen, sent G2 to the bench. Ordered the U R7 and now I've got excellent warning alerts. The G2 is just not reliable so until they get it fixed, I would not recommend buying one.
 

westwind77

Premium Plus
Lifetime Premium
Advanced User
Joined
Dec 7, 2016
Messages
3,536
Reaction score
8,028
I was using the new G2 for a few weeks but called for relief in the bull pen, sent G2 to the bench. Ordered the U R7 and now I've got excellent warning alerts. The G2 is just not reliable so until they get it fixed, I would not recommend buying one.
It is disappointing as the G2 is amazing at Ka, but the significant shortfalls on K band really outweigh the positives on Ka, more so if you live in an area with a good mix of both.

It has been a full year with no 'fix' for this particular issue, and without VR representation on the forum we have no official word if they are even working on this aspect or not.

VR seems to be a company that produces a product, but does not bend to 'customer wants/input' and would rather you not buy their product if you do not like their features or lack there of.

What RD these days (that is anywhere near decent) does not have a frequency display? Pretty much all of us want that feature, but VR did not incorporate that into the G2 as that is something they as a company did not want to do even though pretty much all enthusiasts wanted it. You either accept that fact and buy it regardless or move on to a RD that does offer that feature.

My point being that they may chose to leave K-band reactivity where it stands now, giving a quiet RD, but risky detections. Either accept it or move on to other unit.

Do I think VR can address this K-band problem given the design of the G2 and their resources, without a doubt, the question becomes if they want to or not.

I wish we could get some official word if they are working on this or not. Mike seems to be a very private guy so I do not see him sitting down and doing a one-on-one with Vortex about this problem. Besides, going into the issue before releasing a fix for the issue would negatively impact sales as well.

For now we just wait and cross our fingers......
 

NorEaster18

Maximum Efficiency
Advanced User
Joined
Sep 5, 2018
Messages
2,479
Reaction score
7,644
Location
Boston
It is disappointing as the G2 is amazing at Ka, but the significant shortfalls on K band really outweigh the positives on Ka, more so if you live in an area with a good mix of both.

It has been a full year with no 'fix' for this particular issue, and without VR representation on the forum we have no official word if they are even working on this aspect or not.

VR seems to be a company that produces a product, but does not bend to 'customer wants/input' and would rather you not buy their product if you do not like their features or lack there of.

What RD these days (that is anywhere near decent) does not have a frequency display? Pretty much all of us want that feature, but VR did not incorporate that into the G2 as that is something they as a company did not want to do even though pretty much all enthusiasts wanted it. You either accept that fact and buy it regardless or move on to a RD that does offer that feature.

My point being that they may chose to leave K-band reactivity where it stands now, giving a quiet RD, but risky detections. Either accept it or move on to other unit.

Do I think VR can address this K-band problem given the design of the G2 and their resources, without a doubt, the question becomes if they want to or not.

I wish we could get some official word if they are working on this or not. Mike seems to be a very private guy so I do not see him sitting down and doing a one-on-one with Vortex about this problem. Besides, going into the issue before releasing a fix for the issue would negatively impact sales as well.

For now we just wait and cross our fingers......
Honestly, I picked up an R7 earlier this week and I am absolutely blown away at how good the new update is. And this is coming from the guy who detested the R7 so much back in December that he returned it within 72 hours. It's noticeably quieter than my G2 is (no Mazda falses and no initial K band beep to every single stationary lockout while the detector communicates with the app) while being significantly more reactive to both my Bushnell and my Decatur. And testing has already shown that the higher K band sensitivity settings can already outrange the G2.

I'm going to hold onto it for a month and make a decision before the return period is over, but it's quite a compelling option now, especially because I couldn't care less about the "blasphemous" plastic housing or the lack of RDD immunity. I still prefer the Gen 2's alert presentation (when the bogey counter isn't having a seizure, which unfortunately happens often), but losing that is a small price to pay when the R7 will actually detect my most common threat with meaningful consistency.

But what do I know? Maybe I just don't have enough pride in what I buy ;)
 

Heywood

Learning Something New, Still Dying Stupid
Premium Plus
Lifetime Premium
Corgi Lovers
Advanced User
Joined
May 12, 2016
Messages
6,039
Reaction score
13,701
Location
The Tail Lights Pulling Away From You
@westwind77
I get what your saying. It seems.... sometimes..... and probably unfairly and wrong..... that Valentine builds detectors for Mike Valentine. If it’s not a big threat or concern to MV, it’s not a big concern to the company’s focus.

I really don’t believe that’s the case. The worlds been turned upside down. Escort, Radenso, and Valentine are all in the same area in Ohio...... but how they go about their business is somewhat different.

Escort is more globally spread out. Detectors made in the Philippines. How their programmed and tweaked... I’m not sure. Some might happen in Ohio.... some may not.

Radenso.... detectors made in Korea. They’ve made quite clear that they do not get to always “steer the ship” on what they want out of it. Although they’re based in Ohio.... a lot of the work on the detector itself is not. ( Just like Uniden/ Attowave relationship)

Valentine..... I thing they’re more involved in all the aspects of their detector itself in Ohio than the other 2. I’m looking at the bigger picture. The actual people that work there .... that live there and have “hands on” interaction with the detector and programming the detector itself. Not so much MV himself.

That’s what I THINK about issues at Valentine right now. How I FEEL about it is a little different .... but I’m willing to give them the benefit of doubt that they are in a more difficult situation than the others.
 

Signal Environment

PSL +5
Intermediate User
Joined
Apr 2, 2020
Messages
494
Reaction score
1,464
VR seems to be a company that produces a product, but does not bend to 'customer wants/input' and would rather you not buy their product if you do not like their features or lack there of.

I think there is definitely some truth to this as far as Valentine having a particular way of doing things. If you harmonize with the Valentine philosophy, you'll love the product. If your wants/needs/preferences don't line up, it will feel frustrating. And that's probably why the V1 has always been somewhat polarizing.

Personally I am a fan, but I can easily understand why it's not for everyone. And honestly the V1G2 isn't perfect for me right now, so I'm chillin' with my Pro M and waiting to see how everything shakes out.

I do think they are working to improve the K band performance though. Firmware updates have given different K behavior, but it seems like they had to take a step back and regroup with the last update because it became too false prone on the previous update.

With that said, "working on it" is no guarantee of a final result. If K band is a primary concern, the R7 looks like it may be the better buy right now.
 

NinjaZX6R

Learning to Fly
Beginner User
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Messages
54
Reaction score
93
Location
Michigan
Has anyone tested the V1G2 with the K band antenna for the Raptor RP-1? I face that gun fairly often, both I/O and C/O (in addition to 34.7 and 35.5) and my R7 has performed great and never let me down and the latest update IS better on BSM's BUT, I really want a V1G2 so I can use JBV1 and reading threads like this make me think I still need to wait, damn👎.
 

OBeerWANKenobi

This is not the car you're looking for......
ModSec
VIP
Premium Plus
Lifetime Premium
Corgi Lovers
Advanced User
Joined
Mar 20, 2018
Messages
8,103
Reaction score
25,160
Location
Outer Rim - Hiding from 35.5 I/O
Has anyone tested the V1G2 with the K band antenna for the Raptor RP-1? I face that gun fairly often, both I/O and C/O (in addition to 34.7 and 35.5) and my R7 has performed great and never let me down and the latest update IS better on BSM's BUT, I really want a V1G2 so I can use JBV1 and reading threads like this make me think I still need to wait, damn👎.


We've tested with Falcon HR which, AFAIK, is the handheld version of the RP-1. Ramp and reactivity is fine with that gun, but the filtering seems to make detection distance much less than what you will get out of an R series. I've went up against the Falcon HR in the wild and I have not been impressed with the G2 against the gun. Note though, that other "quiet" RD's have issues with these guns too, including the ProM.

Here is a thread where I went against 2 HR's in the wild being shot out of either side of an Explorer. I'm sure they were hitting every car that came through but I was only warned by a very weak alert and very shortly before the kill zone.
 

InsipidMonkey

Essential Monkey
ModSec
Premium Plus
Lifetime Premium
Corgi Lovers
Advanced User
Joined
Mar 22, 2017
Messages
8,143
Reaction score
18,967
Location
New England
For now we just wait and cross our fingers......
Have you called VR to voice your concerns? It's pretty easy to call up and talk to an engineer there (sometimes even Mike V). Perhaps if more people called with feedback it would help them prioritize improvements.
 

DrHow

Going Plaid+ (Tesla S). RDT refugee
Banned User
Premium Plus
Lifetime Premium
Corgi Lovers
Advanced User
Joined
May 18, 2018
Messages
4,341
Reaction score
7,592
It is disappointing as the G2 is amazing at Ka, but the significant shortfalls on K band really outweigh the positives on Ka, more so if you live in an area with a good mix of both.

It has been a full year with no 'fix' for this particular issue, and without VR representation on the forum we have no official word if they are even working on this aspect or not.

VR seems to be a company that produces a product, but does not bend to 'customer wants/input' and would rather you not buy their product if you do not like their features or lack there of.

What RD these days (that is anywhere near decent) does not have a frequency display? Pretty much all of us want that feature, but VR did not incorporate that into the G2 as that is something they as a company did not want to do even though pretty much all enthusiasts wanted it. You either accept that fact and buy it regardless or move on to a RD that does offer that feature.

My point being that they may chose to leave K-band reactivity where it stands now, giving a quiet RD, but risky detections. Either accept it or move on to other unit.

Do I think VR can address this K-band problem given the design of the G2 and their resources, without a doubt, the question becomes if they want to or not.

I wish we could get some official word if they are working on this or not. Mike seems to be a very private guy so I do not see him sitting down and doing a one-on-one with Vortex about this problem. Besides, going into the issue before releasing a fix for the issue would negatively impact sales as well.

For now we just wait and cross our fingers......
As bad as you suggest it is, G2 outsells any single model arrow product. Possible the combined ER arrow series. There is some reason for that. except for handful of CM hobbyists, it works for the majority. If it did not, the majority would rebel.
 

DrHow

Going Plaid+ (Tesla S). RDT refugee
Banned User
Premium Plus
Lifetime Premium
Corgi Lovers
Advanced User
Joined
May 18, 2018
Messages
4,341
Reaction score
7,592
Honestly, I picked up an R7 earlier this week and I am absolutely blown away at how good the new update is. And this is coming from the guy who detested the R7 so much back in December that he returned it within 72 hours. It's noticeably quieter than my G2 is (no Mazda falses and no initial K band beep to every single stationary lockout while the detector communicates with the app) while being significantly more reactive to both my Bushnell and my Decatur. And testing has already shown that the higher K band sensitivity settings can already outrange the G2.

I'm going to hold onto it for a month and make a decision before the return period is over, but it's quite a compelling option now, especially because I couldn't care less about the "blasphemous" plastic housing or the lack of RDD immunity. I still prefer the Gen 2's alert presentation (when the bogey counter isn't having a seizure, which unfortunately happens often), but losing that is a small price to pay when the R7 will actually detect my most common threat with meaningful consistency.

But what do I know? Maybe I just don't have enough pride in what I buy ;)
Uniden history across at least one other tech product ecosystem has proven to be at the top of the heap. And improve products. Their non licensed RF products, licensed RF products have a long history of continual product development, innovating, and meeting discerning buyers. If they can milk more out of the R7 platform, history suggests they will keep doing that. Until they replace it with some new platform accommodating their customer base needs. Assuming they repeat what they have done with other premium products in other electronic ecosystems.
 

westwind77

Premium Plus
Lifetime Premium
Advanced User
Joined
Dec 7, 2016
Messages
3,536
Reaction score
8,028
Have you called VR to voice your concerns? It's pretty easy to call up and talk to an engineer there (sometimes even Mike V). Perhaps if more people called with feedback it would help them prioritize improvements.
I have not, then again I believe it has been revealed that Mike (or someone close) monitors this forum for issues. Sometimes finding the time to call can be difficult, as with most people these days e-mail is the best way for most. From what I have heard VR does not really deal with e-mail well at all though. I could call, but as you said, unless a large group calls I doubt it would do much. You could easily get a group together to e-mail though, as that can be done any anytime of the day/night.
 
Last edited:

westwind77

Premium Plus
Lifetime Premium
Advanced User
Joined
Dec 7, 2016
Messages
3,536
Reaction score
8,028
As bad as you suggest it is, G2 outsells any single model arrow product. Possible the combined ER arrow series. There is some reason for that. except for handful of CM hobbyists, it works for the majority. If it did not, the majority would rebel.
I'm curious where you are getting that data from? I'm not saying you are wrong but I have never seen sales data revealed for either company.

Given that you can buy the ER series or R7 in stores and many places on-line, including Amazon I would be shocked to see VR numbers eclipse ER's or Unidens, but anything is possible I guess.

I can honestly say in the last 10 years I have never seen a VR product on windshield (with the exception of my own). The RD's I see the most by far are ER units.

VR does have a very loyal following without a doubt and I am sure there would have been a massive jump in sales for the '20 year vs competitors due to the G2 release.

As for it working well for the majority, if they face primarily Ka I am sure you are right but there are a number of G1 users who have noticed the 'lacking' K-band ability and have not been happy with it. The others that purchase and use the G2 may not have another RD to compare the unit against, thinking what they have is great, when in reality they do not realize how deficient the unit is on K-band at the moment. These buyers do not know the grass is greener on the other side as their fence is not low enough to see over.
 
Last edited:

DrHow

Going Plaid+ (Tesla S). RDT refugee
Banned User
Premium Plus
Lifetime Premium
Corgi Lovers
Advanced User
Joined
May 18, 2018
Messages
4,341
Reaction score
7,592
I'm curious where you are getting that data from? I'm not saying you are wrong but I have never seen sales data revealed for either company.

Given that you can buy the ER series or R7 in stores and many places on-line, including Amazon I would be shocked to see VR numbers eclipse ER's or Unidens, but anything is possible I guess.

I can honestly say in the last 10 years I have never seen a VR product on windshield (with the exception of my own). The RD's I see the most by far are ER units.

VR does have a very loyal following without a doubt and I am sure there would have been a massive jump in sales for the '20 year vs competitors due to the G2 release.

As for it working well for the majority, if they face primarily Ka I am sure you are right but there are a number of G1 users who have noticed the 'lacking' K-band ability and have not been happy with it. The others that purchase and use the G2 may not have another RD to compare the unit again, thinking what they have is great, when in reality they do not realize how deficient the unit is on K-band at the moment. These buyers do not know the grass is greener on the other side as their fence is not low enough to see over.
Little birdies over in Cincy who have a role of knowing the SN systems of each devices and keeping the count. That is their determination. G2 wins the sales contest so far.
 

Kennyc56

Ford Lover-I/O hater!
Premium Plus
Lifetime Premium
Advanced User
Joined
Feb 22, 2018
Messages
5,256
Reaction score
19,289
Location
I/O Hell, Aka Eastern N.C.
@westwind77 and @DrHow , you both make good points! I love my V1G2 as much as anyone, but it does need help on K band! Lucky for me I never see it anymore! As far as Ka band goes the V1G2 is insane! I've run a couple of R7's long enough to know that while the R7 is good on Ka band, it can't touch the V1G2 on the really tough off axis 34.7 and 35.5 alerts that I'm faced with! If I did have to worry about I/O K band however, my V1G2 wouldn't be good enough. As it is right now, if we go on a trip out of state, I'm going to run on of my R1's on the other side of my windshield for protection against K band I/O! We all know that the V1G2 has an LNA for K band, so when Mike flips the switch I fully expect all hell to break loose on ALL types of K band alerts! I think he's holding back because of all of the crying that will happen if this causes more falses! Not from me it won't! Like I've said before, make it an option like turning Ka guard off was in the V1G1! As long as I owned my V1G1 I never ran it even 1 foot with Ka guard on! Did I have a Ka false once in a while? Yes a few, but look how the V1G1 kicked @ss against Ka band I/O shots with it off! Turning K verifier off doesn't help do anything but make it false like hell! It doesn't add any range or speed against K band I/O unfortunately.
 

NinjaZX6R

Learning to Fly
Beginner User
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
Messages
54
Reaction score
93
Location
Michigan
We've tested with Falcon HR which, AFAIK, is the handheld version of the RP-1. Ramp and reactivity is fine with that gun, but the filtering seems to make detection distance much less than what you will get out of an R series. I've went up against the Falcon HR in the wild and I have not been impressed with the G2 against the gun. Note though, that other "quiet" RD's have issues with these guns too, including the ProM.

Here is a thread where I went against 2 HR's in the wild being shot out of either side of an Explorer. I'm sure they were hitting every car that came through but I was only warned by a very weak alert and very shortly before the kill zone.
Hmmmm, thanks. It looks I'll be running the R7 and JBV1 in stand-alone mode until Mike gets it optimized for I/O K band guns, which I'm confident he will!
 

aspexin22

Learning to Drive
General User
Joined
Jul 31, 2020
Messages
40
Reaction score
59
I do not understand this discussion. Unless Illinois is running different K band. But the local City runs K band and I detect it no problem. County Sherrif runs Ka band and also detect no problem. So how is V1 gen2 working for me but not others?
 

Discord Server

Latest threads

Forum statistics

Threads
94,719
Messages
1,442,350
Members
24,255
Latest member
CTF
Top