Is VR planning to address the K-band reactivity problem?

westwind77

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On the way into work there was a local LEO camped in one of his fav spots right on the side of 2-lane road, with no active radar going. As I got closer (actually very close) the G2 alerted as he I/O'ed a vehicle coming around the bend towards him on the opposite side. The G2 only gave ONE audible chirp and the alert meter never went past three bars then quickly faded and I was not too far away from his rear fender. I wish I could show the cam video from this morning but conversation in the vehicle prohibits it.

The G2 is amazing on Ka, has great BSM filtering, and I love pairing it with JBV1 and all of extended features that offers.....but.....it is miserable on K-band reactivity and ramp up. This is now the second time the G2 has really let me down in regard to I/O K-band. At this point I could not recommend the G2 to anyone if they face the threat of I/O K-band.

I powered down the G2 and gave life to the RL360c for the rest of the drive after that.

Has there been any confirmation from VR if they are going to address this problem?

This RD has been out for a full year now, without any fix for this issue and I am starting to wonder if one is even in the works or not at this point.

I know in the Vortex interview Mike seemed fine with having a k-band delay and the like if it meant having a RD that did not false to BSM's often, that is one of the main reasons I am questioning all of this. Just because some of us here want this addressed does not mean it will be. Maybe this is how Mike designed it and does not feel it needs to be changed, I don't know.

All I know is that I will be running the RL360c mainly now. I really wish there would be at least some basic formal confirmation on if this is being addressed.
 

MichaelC

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Thank you for your post. I'm heading to an area where leo runs K band and IO K band. As lifelong V1 user I will continue to delay my V2 purchase until I see where V2 is offering something better than stealth.
 

WildOne

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On the way into work there was a local LEO camped in one of his fav spots right on the side of 2-lane road, with no active radar going. As I got closer (actually very close) the G2 alerted as he I/O'ed a vehicle coming around the bend towards him on the opposite side. The G2 only gave ONE audible chirp and the alert meter never went past three bars then quickly faded and I was not too far away from his rear fender. I wish I could show the cam video from this morning but conversation in the vehicle prohibits it.

The G2 is amazing on Ka, has great BSM filtering, and I love pairing it with JBV1 and all of extended features that offers.....but.....it is miserable on K-band reactivity and ramp up. This is now the second time the G2 has really let me down in regard to I/O K-band. At this point I could not recommend the G2 to anyone if they face the threat of I/O K-band.

I powered down the G2 and gave life to the RL360c for the rest of the drive after that.

Has there been any confirmation from VR if they are going to address this problem?

This RD has been out for a full year now, without any fix for this issue and I am starting to wonder if one is even in the works or not at this point.

I know in the Vortex interview Mike seemed fine with having a k-band delay and the like if it meant having a RD that did not false to BSM's often, that is one of the main reasons I am questioning all of this. Just because some of us here want this addressed does not mean it will be. Maybe this is how Mike designed it and does not feel it needs to be changed, I don't know.

All I know is that I will be running the RL360c mainly now. I really wish there would be at least some basic formal confirmation on if this is being addressed.
I got lucky enough to talk directly to Mike one day on the phone. He knows about it and is working on it. That is all I know. I have no clue when the fix will be coming. Like you, I hope soon. That is why I am running my old Gen1 along with it.

I live in an area that has a mix of K, Ka IO and CO on both bands. Some days the Gen1 stays on mute the whole way to work. In this case I would never know about a new threat unless I happen to look at the count and filter out the BSMs myself. This is where I depend on the Gen2. Ka, I'm well covered. It is the best that it can be. K band, if Gen1 isn't seeing BSMs, I'm covered. If it is seeing BSMs, then I'm playing roulette with the Gen2 telling me quick enough.

I have had a case of K CO, where the Gen2 was quiet for the BSMs that the Gen1 was screaming away with. Gen2 alerted me to the K CO well in advance. I wouldn't have noticed it on the Gen1 until it may have been too late. I have had the case where the Gen1 went off 2 sec before the Gen2 with K IO and it was a save.

So far the lottery is working well.... 🤞....but I really would like to run just one detector and get a second one for my wife. It's not happening until this gets fixed!
 

Bloovy One

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I don't have an answer for you except there have already been some apparent changes to firmware as mentioned in the release notes. I'm not saying that it's finished or even started so don't read anything into what I'm saying here.

One thing that I think might be happening is that the expectations of what is occurring are not matching the design of the unit.

It's been said that some brands/models will alert full tilt sooner than necessary. This fosters the idea that any nearby signal (weak or strong) should peg the meter. That's also subjective and very dependent on the environment at that moment.
[Edit: One person's view of too close might not seem close at all to someone else in the same, or different, circumstances.]

It's my observation/opinion that VR doesn't want what is considered to be an over-reactive alert. If there's a weak signal, you get a correspondingly weak alert. If there's a strong signal, you get a strong alert.

When asked about the return of the Gen1 option: "Ka Meter Responsiveness" where the choices were "Normal" and "High"; Mike Valentine said that they were not inclined to add that feature as it was "artificial". (<Paraphrased)
The idea of generating an alert that isn't accurate seems to be frowned upon.

[Edit: My telling of the "artificial" discussion does not mean that other discussions are null and void. We will see what happens in the next release.]
 
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NorEaster18

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@westwind77 I share your sentiment. I actually almost got C/Owned on the Pike the other night at PSL +30. Trooper was on the other side of the road with K band shooting backwards. V1G2 did not even alert until I was literally on top of him. I'm probably very lucky that we were separated by a barrier.

It's not just me being used to another brand's ramp up. I've been using the detector for three months now and I'm pretty damn used to how it functions. It's just not a reliable performer on K band, be it I/O or any tough C/O encounter. I get that it's for the BSM filtering, but until you actually face the real threat of K band every day, it's tough to quantify how much the V1G2 is under performing in this area right now. It was actually a relief to run it in upstate NY this weekend and see how amazing it is against Ka band. The reality is that a majority of people just don't have to worry about K band in any meaningful way, so I get why they made this sacrifice.
 

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Since BSM's obviously are the 'devil in the details' for K-Band reactivity, and since most people don't want to spend $1k on a w/s detector, why not implement a higher sensitivity/reactivity setting (user selectable) that reports a "J-Out" on K band? It's a workaround, but at least we could choose to enable that feature if we face K-Band threats.
 

westwind77

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It's been said that some brands/models will alert full tilt sooner than necessary. This fosters the idea that any nearby signal (weak or strong) should peg the meter. That's also subjective and very dependent on the environment at that moment.
[Edit: One person's view of too close might not seem close at all to someone else in the same, or different, circumstances.]
I can appreciate how VR has tried to implement their ramp strength, having an overreactive RD is not enjoyable, but on the flip side having an under-reactive unit is not good either. There is a speed sign where the G2 is at one bar where running the RL360c through in the same spot is already maxed out. That is a significant difference.

Having a unit such as the G2 in a wide open flat environment behaves much differently than it does for those of us in difficult terrain. It gives a very false sense of how close the threat might be, especially if it is an I/O shot. I know running the Uniden or Escort if I get a weak alert it is indeed a good ways off where with the G2 it could be right around the corner.

As for this morning I was close enough to see how much tread he had on his tires when it alerted as I approached.
@westwind77 I share your sentiment. I actually almost got C/Owned on the Pike the other night at PSL +30. Trooper was on the other side of the road with K band shooting backwards. V1G2 did not even alert until I was literally on top of him. I'm probably very lucky that we were separated by a barrier.

It's not just me being used to another brand's ramp up. I've been using the detector for three months now and I'm pretty damn used to how it functions. It's just not a reliable performer on K band, be it I/O or any tough C/O encounter. I get that it's for the BSM filtering, but until you actually face the real threat of K band every day, it's tough to quantify how much the V1G2 is under performing in this area right now. It was actually a relief to run it in upstate NY this weekend and see how amazing it is against Ka band. The reality is that a majority of people just don't have to worry about K band in any meaningful way, so I get why they made this sacrifice.
I've had a few good C/O K encounters and a few so-so ones as well. It is the K I/O that is bothering me now that my town seems to be using it more. You are right about Ka though, it is a beast. I think a lot of RD companies are focused mainly on Ka and let K-band fall where it may, sadly.
Since BSM's obviously are the 'devil in the details' for K-Band reactivity, and since most people don't want to spend $1k on a w/s detector, why not implement a higher sensitivity/reactivity setting (user selectable) that reports a "J-Out" on K band? It's a workaround, but at least we could choose to enable that feature if we face K-Band threats.
Honestly the Max360 series was/is as close to perfect as we (or at least I) have seen. It has very good reactivity to both K-band and Ka-band (without having to segment) and has great BSM filtering. Escort has proven, with their Max, that they can achieve great filtering and great reactivity. Sadly they did not use that platform to create the new RL series.

Not to go too OT on my own thread but my wife has been making a more calls while driving and the R3 is noisy with BSM's and the lack of auto-lock outs. I swapped her R3 for my 'old' Max360 last night. It really is a great RD, just missing the sensitivity of the latest ones.

I think after a year of being out in the world we would have seen some kind of attempt to address the K-band reactivity, but nothing so much yet. As of now they are backordered until the 19th, and there have been prior backorders as well. I would think this 'down time' would give VR time to really focus on some of these issues. I know VR will never post on here about any updates, and there are a few on here who seem to have closer connections to VR but not a lot has been revealed about coming updates.

I don't want to talk negatively about VR or the G2 as everything else with the RD is solid. It has the best arrow transition of any RD I have owned and it's Ka band performance is just amazing. Its K-band performance is the thorn in its side. I really hope we will see an update to address this in the near future.
 

fishing66

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This discussion should be of high interest to PA drivers who face IO K band on highways.
 

LouG

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I really wonder why so many people seem to think that 1 bar signals can be ignored and/or don't matter.
Maybe it's because I've become accustomed to VR's philosophy with ramping, but I react to every beep, even it's just heightened awareness that something is up.
I certainly don't want hyper ramping.
Now, if the issue is lack of range, that's different. But a cop on the other side of a divided highway shooting away from you is not a threat if he is clearly visible as you approach.
 

westwind77

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I really wonder why so many people seem to think that 1 bar signals can be ignored and/or don't matter.
Maybe it's because I've become accustomed to VR's philosophy with ramping, but I react to every beep, even it's just heightened awareness that something is up.
I certainly don't want hyper ramping.
Now, if the issue is lack of range, that's different. But a cop on the other side of a divided highway shooting away from you is not a threat if he is clearly visible as you approach.
The G2 is very good at BSM filtering, but not perfect, no current RD is. That said, I still get my share of mid K-band BSM alerts, and they are low, one or two bars. I don't want to hit my brakes for every BSM that sneaks though thinking there could be a LEO right around the corner.

Also, this is not only an issue with reactivity but also ramp up. Just like with Ka on prior firmware the initial alert takes a short bit to ramp up to the real threat level. This is an issue in I/O situations as the brief alert may not give time for the G2 to show the true threat level before it starts to fade.

With the RL360c when I get a weak BSM, it is just that, one bar and I know not to worry as the unit is not hyper-ramping.

Where I was this morning the G2 should have been maxed out, but it felt barely a threat, that is what concerns me the most.

It is what it is, as they say. Either VR is going to address this issue or ignore it. Their G1, from videos I have seen, reacts great to K-band - just does not have the best BSM filtering.
 
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Buz

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...V1G1, from videos I have seen, reacts great to K-band - just does not have the best BSM filtering.
At the $500 price point does anyone really think these two opposing forces can/will be neutralized to have a truly great K-Band detector?
 

NorEaster18

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I really wonder why so many people seem to think that 1 bar signals can be ignored and/or don't matter.
Man, it sure is swell that you can assume every single 1-bar alert is real and brake for each and every one! :bravo:

Too bad that's just not an option around here. There's nonstop dense traffic littered with Hondas, Mazdas, Chryslers, and GMs. If I was braking for every 1-bar K band false I receive, I wouldn't get anywhere and I would cook my brakes in a matter of months. Logic and Advanced Logic are not options, because the V1G2 is already alerting on top of some sources to legit K band alerts in All-Bogeys Mode.
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This discussion should be of high interest to PA drivers who face IO K band on highways.
I won't run it in PA, point blank.
 

Bloovy One

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@westwind77, FWIW, I believe that I'm also in a "difficult terrain" area. I live in the Blue Ridge mountains, drive in and around the mountains with foliage around most of the year, and I encounter much more K-band than anything else.

Just providing a data point. :)
 

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Kennyc56

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I've seen @RoadDogg 's C/O K band videos that sucked, so it's not just Q/T and I/O K band. I never see K band anymore for some reason even though there are tons of town cops and duputy sheriffs that still run it. It seems to depend on which K band gun you're getting shot with. If the V1G2 wasn't so off the hook incredible against even the faintest sniff of Ka band, it wouldn't make it so unbalanced. After @VariableWave 's and my testing, I wouldn't rely on my V1G2 if I faced even a little bit of I/O K band. I hope they fix this issue soon!
 
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biolink

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This is the only reason I still run the gen1..I live in k band hell.
Only nostalgia will get my Gen 1 back out.

When I tested the Falcon a few weeks back I found my Gen 2 more reactive to that gun. I had no issues with ramp up then.. I'd love to know which gun your LEO was using. As a coincidence I called VR to ask a question on another topic and Mike picked up the phone. I brought up K band and he said he believes they can adjust algorithms to make it better. The issue he related is that BSM signals can seem like IO at times. Still, from what he told me, they aren't done.
 

westwind77

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I'd love to know which gun your LEO was using.
It has been a little over a year since I had a chance to look into a few of them but they were running the Bee III dash units.
 

biolink

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It has been a little over a year since I had a chance to look into a few of them but they were running the Bee III dash units.
The K issues seem to be gun related. The reaction to Falcon is quicker than others, but the low power gives short range. The guns with greater range stink on IO. I'm sure they'll improve things.
 

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I really wonder why so many people seem to think that 1 bar signals can be ignored and/or don't matter.
Maybe it's because I've become accustomed to VR's philosophy with ramping, but I react to every beep, even it's just heightened awareness that something is up.
I certainly don't want hyper ramping.
Now, if the issue is lack of range, that's different. But a cop on the other side of a divided highway shooting away from you is not a threat if he is clearly visible as you approach.
Here’s my take on what the K band reactivity issue is with the Gen 2. On my Gen 1, K based BSMs tend to be 1-3 max strength and pretty quick, depending on passing speed, direction, etc. With a Gen 2, these signals are better suppressed through some basic strength reduction, from what I’ve seen and others. Had another recent chance to try a Gen 2 in a K area and I don’t like it. While current firmware seems to nix the low strength K falses, it also now takes a legit 3-4 bar K and thinks it’s a 1-2 bar. So yeah... WTF? You boys still think it’s some kind of other magic filtering they’re doing? Doesn’t look like it to me, but what do I know. I’m accustomed to my Gen 1 for the BSM noise levels and when I saw what I’d previously think was a BSM be an actual cop... no thanks! K just simply isn’t good enough at the moment on the Gen 2.
 

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