Theia With POP Detection

Deacon

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Wow, not just an opinion, but a fact. Wow. :rolleyes:
I can’t tell if you’re agreeing or not, but obviously humans in general don’t like doing extra unnecessary work unless they’re passionate about some aspect of it. Traffic enforcement can more than meet their quotas just running radar, so other than some gung-ho types, generally they wouldn’t be interested in coming up with ways to make it harder.

The problem is there do exist those gung-ho types, here and there, and we have to be ready for them.
 

Nine_C1

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This is a pointless argument. We're making assumptions that LEO's are lazy and therefore will not use a featured function on their radar unit...…...really.

The facts are, the option exists and it will be used. Now it should take all of 67ms to train Rai on how to differentiate a POP shot from a conventional Instant On shot. If this is THE premier detector that can tell you what gun is shooting you and give you the pulse rate and blood pressure of the LEO shooting the gun, then why not do it?

Just do it.
 
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BelStiDriverFan

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I think one element not being discussed is how much would it cost to add POP functionality to Theia when it already detects quick trigger IO, if it would delay the product launch, how many people would like POP functionality, and how much that would add to the end consumer product which is already expected to break the budget for most RD customers.
 

sdrawkcaB

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Awesome news, did not realize it had been improved that much; thank you for the testing. Do you know if any testing has been done looking for any negative impact of having pop turned on?
I don't believe so. POP Ka is 67ms length bursts, so if it were to be added to the sweeps, it should see no more than 67ms in time added to the length of a complete scan cycle; so less than 1/10th of a second of additional time per cycle in order to check for it per sweep.
 

Boozehound

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This is a pointless argument. We're making assumptions that LEO's are lazy and therefore will not use a featured function on their radar unit...…...really.

The facts are, the option exists and it will be used. Now it should take all of 67ms to train Rai on how to differentiate a POP shot from a conventional Instant On shot. If this THE premier detector that can tell you what gun is shooting you and give you the pulse rate and blood pressure of the LEO shooting the gun, then why not do it?

Just do it.
Agreed. In addition to the 67mS time who wants to bet that the rate of drift is greater in that short length of time? Gunn diodes don't really like being pulsed. Didn't they also produce one with a 16mS POP mode? Wonder what the delta MHz/mS looks like on that one and how it affects the accuracy.
Post automatically merged:

I think one element not being discussed is how much would it cost to add POP functionality to Theia when it already detects quick trigger IO, if it would delay the product launch, how many people would like POP functionality, and how much that would add to the end consumer product which is already expected to break the budget for most RD customers.
Zero in hardware costs. Just the software development.
 

sdrawkcaB

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natedog7700

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Wow, not just an opinion, but a fact. Wow. :rolleyes:

From my experience, but yes its an opinion let's not nit pick to hard here.
 

MikePA

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I can’t tell if you’re agreeing or not, but obviously humans in general don’t like doing extra unnecessary work unless they’re passionate about some aspect of it. Traffic enforcement can more than meet their quotas just running radar, so other than some gung-ho types, generally they wouldn’t be interested in coming up with ways to make it harder.

The problem is there do exist those gung-ho types, here and there, and we have to be ready for them.
I was not agreeing with the blanket statement that most LEOs are lazy. I have no idea if they are or not.
 

Heywood

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Just because I haven’t looked into this topic of “Pop”, I have a couple of questions.
The guns that have this option:
1. Are they still being produced

2. If not available on new units, are they still serviceable/repairable from the manufacture. ( supported )

3. As it relates to Theia. If it can identify I/O shots with IOscout, why would there be much concern if it might miss a shot.

Wouldn’t the gun show the same characteristics in the “Waterfall” between both? It would still have to show that “swoop” at the beginning and identify it as I/O.

Just thinking out loud.... if Theia can identify the gun by component, and can see and identify it as I/O, what does it matter to the owner using Theia if it’s “Pop” or I/O?

Is this more of a RDF curiosity because we run multiple detectors at times ...rather than a person that only has 1 detector?

Why would a normal user really care about the difference between “Pop” or I/O as long as it’s being detected, identified, and alerted as a threat.
 

Boozehound

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Just because I haven’t looked into this topic of “Pop”, I have a couple of questions.
The guns that have this option:
1. Are they still being produced

2. If not available on new units, are they still serviceable/repairable from the manufacture. ( supported )

3. As it relates to Theia. If it can identify I/O shots with IOscout, why would there be much concern if it might miss a shot.

Wouldn’t the gun show the same characteristics in the “Waterfall” between both? It would still have to show that “swoop” at the beginning and identify it as I/O.

Just thinking out loud.... if Theia can identify the gun by component, and can see and identify it as I/O, what does it matter to the owner using Theia if it’s “Pop” or I/O?

Is this more of a RDF curiosity because we run multiple detectors at times ...rather than a person that only has 1 detector?

Why would a normal user really care about the difference between “Pop” or I/O as long as it’s being detected, identified, and alerted as a threat.
MPH identifies POP mode as being inappropriate for issuing citations. For this reason a POP shot indicates a level of zealousness beyond just a cop trying to do his job. He's going out of his way to be a douchebag and that's a good thing to be aware of. I'd be more careful in an area I had been detecting POP shots.

A cop simply using I/O could be doing it to be extra sneaky. Or he could be doing it because he was trained that way. Or because he wants to minimize his exposure to microwave. If he's using POP I think it's fair to assume he likes "going the extra mile."

To my knowledge the latest MPH products have it.
 

SwankPeRFection

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@Heywood As @Boozehound said, “some cop”, not all but definitely there are some out there, will write bs tickets. Such a ticket could be written to someone he got with a POP shot that didn’t know was POP (and not an allowable mode for credible citation) and will just take the damn ticket. Now, if you have an enthusiast with Theia speeding, gets a POP shot, slams on the brake, has no follow up shot for proper speed lock and gets pulled over, depending on how the interaction is, if the cops is being a douche about it, that person could (especially if they’re recording and the cop knows they’re recording and have them on tape) ask the cop how they’re writing a ticket when they can’t with a POP shot. They can flat out say, I have a detector that’s fancy enough to know that you hit me with a POP shot from your gun type (Theia IDs it too) and then you had no follow up shot to lock my speed. They can then say, that if the cop is insisting that they’re wrong even though they just told the cop the type of gun, the mode they got the shot off, etc. and he’s on tape stating that’s not the case, then have him write the ticket, document his radar unit info and you’ll see him in court and they can compare proof for proof on what was used.

FYI, in a situation like this, the person getting pulled over might want to ask the cop to see his radar unit and for them to take a pic of its current mode before they play their hand on the info they had about the shot the cop took. Chances will be good, the damn thing will still be in POP mode and I think they’d have an indicator of such on the screen of it. This would keep that cop from changing modes and saying he wasn’t in POP when he shot you.

Now yeah, this is all a convoluted scenario mess, but this is basically why people are being picky about this. Hope it makes sense to everyone.
 

Boozehound

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@Heywood As @Boozehound said, “some cop”, not all but definitely there are some out there, will write bs tickets. Such a ticket could be written to someone he got with a POP shot that didn’t know was POP (and not an allowable mode for credible citation) and will just take the damn ticket. Now, if you have an enthusiast with Theia speeding, gets a POP shot, slams on the brake, has no follow up shot for proper speed lock and gets pulled over, depending on how the interaction is, if the cops is being a douche about it, that person could (especially if they’re recording and the cop knows they’re recording and have them on tape) ask the cop how they’re writing a ticket when they can’t with a POP shot. They can flat out say, I have a detector that’s fancy enough to know that you hit me with a POP shot from your gun type (Theia IDs it too) and then you had no follow up shot to lock my speed. They can then say, that if the cop is insisting that they’re wrong even though they just told the cop the type of gun, the mode they got the shot off, etc. and he’s on tape stating that’s not the case, then have him write the ticket, document his radar unit info and you’ll see him in court and they can compare proof for proof on what was used.
FYI, in a situation like this, the person getting pulled over might want to ask the cop to see his radar unit and for them to take a pic of its current mode before they play their hand on the info they had about the shot the cop took. Chances will be good, the damn thing will still be in POP mode and I think they’d have an indicator of such on the screen of it. This would keep that cop from changing modes and saying he wasn’t in POP when he shot you.

Now yeah, this is all a convoluted scenario mess, but this is basically why people are being picky about this. Hope it makes sense to everyone.
Interesting take. Here's another angle: Let's say you get a POP alert about the time you see him, know you're toast, and don't drop anchor. If he cites you, you comment that your RD never even went off. Give him the opportunity to smugly explain that his radar isn't detectable. If you play it well he might even explain that it's POP. Never underestimate the inflated ego of a loser who gets off on punishing people who didn't hurt anyone. This might be unpopular here but I believe most cops are decent, want to help people, and lock up those who think it's ok to hurt others. This isn't the cop who's constantly refining his hiding spot and looking for new ways to inappropriately use LE tools to punish ordinary citizens. Wouldn't it be great if your RD identified the guys who take the time to use special modes as special douches?
 

Heywood

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Still if he might be using “pop”, and you can detect it anyway.... even if it shows up as I/O... does it make that much of a difference?

Have you ever asked a cop to see the unit he was using?

Do people think that they are under some sort of obligation to show you his equipment, or a locked in speed? Good luck. Plead your case in front of a judge is the usual response.

I’ve heard of urban legend stories of stuff like that... but really who’s tried. Your wasting your time.

As long as he has the certifications and training..... doubt you’ll get very far.

Trying to use a radar detector in front of a judge. It just leaves the impression that it wasn’t really an honest mistake. Less likely to get a little leniency when convicted.
 

Boozehound

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Still if he might be using “pop”, and you can detect it anyway.... even if it shows up as I/O... does it make that much of a difference?

Have you ever asked a cop to see the unit he was using?

Do people think that they are under some sort of obligation to show you his equipment, or a locked in speed? Good luck. Plead your case in front of a judge is the usual response.

I’ve heard of urban legend stories of stuff like that... but really who’s tried. Your wasting your time.

As long as he has the certifications and training..... doubt you’ll get very far.

Trying to use a radar detector in front of a judge. It just leaves the impression that it wasn’t really an honest mistake. Less likely to get a little leniency when convicted.
I'd never make any demands to see his radar. Sometimes people seem to be under the false impression that the police are required to comply with such a request. The first rule to remember is that during any involuntary interaction with the police, they are in charge. There's no shortage of video of idiots in the U.S. who think they're running the show when stopped by the police. But I do think confirmation of POP usage offers greater SA and could be helpful later on in court. You'd be surprised what some cops will admit on the stand. This has led to immediate dismissal in at least one case for me. The judge interrupted and said he'd heard enough, that there was obviously reasonable doubt, and the case was dismissed.
 

radarlyon

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I feel like most of us have been writing of POP because we believe it's infrequently used and because most detectors suck at picking it up reliably. Maybe they can do it, but then they introduce POP falses and slow down normal scanning, plus many detectors may not properly differentiate POP vs non-POP shots. POP may not be allowed to be used alone to issue tickets, sure, but there's certainly nothing stopping officers from using it to preview speeds and then switch over to a normal IO shot which is the intended usage.

Given that a lot of us turn off POP mode and don't have a good way of confirming POP in the times when we have it on, it'd be nice to know for sure whether or not POP is actually being used and to what extent. At this point I don't think we have reliable information so we're making our best guesses instead.

We could debate how important it is to have good POP detection for sure. Personally I'm hoping that Theia will allow us all to run with everything enabled... X band, K band, Ka, MRCD, MRCT, Gatso, Reflex, Mesta Fusion, POP, etc. Just turn it all on, even if you don't think if it's in use. If it ever shows up one day in your area, boom! Theia will let you know! If turning on "unneeded" bands doesn't compromise performance or introduce any false alerts, seems like it'd be straightforward to have everyone scanning for everything and then we'll finally know for sure what's in use where.

Just thinking how I/O is used and how POP would be used, Theia would report I/O constantly when POP is being used and would report I/O for the few seconds if CO is triggered and then stopped. Assuming POP is being used constantly because it would be just as easy to quick trigger CO than quick trigger POP. I don’t know how Theia will report I/O if CO is turned on, but not turned off. I think you would know in a few seconds what it is.


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G37X Jockey

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Just thinking how I/O is used and how POP would be used, Theia would report I/O constantly when POP is being used and would report I/O for the few seconds if CO is triggered and then stopped. Assuming POP is being used constantly because it would be just as easy to quick trigger CO than quick trigger POP. I don’t know how Theia will report I/O if CO is turned on, but not turned off. I think you would know in a few seconds what it is.


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I expect that if Theia is in range of radar as it is starting up, that signal will have the signature characteristics of I/O. If the radar is being used in C/O mode then that will be obvious after the initial I/O alert.
 

2FST4U

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My bad.....….it may actually be (6) State Agencies.

Nevada
Washington
Idaho
Iowa
Rhode Island
Ohio

I live in Idaho and I.S.P. Uses MPH guns. As well as some City cops where I live.... I’ve had an occasional POP alert and driven by a LEO a few moments later on the way to or from work.


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Bossdad71

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There won't be a POP mode needed for Theia because POP is pretty much nearly non-existent and Theia can already identify I/O shots with Theia's ioScout. If you check out the Theia FAQ sticky in this section there are videos where Jon and Ariel talk about ioScout.
Nevada has a contract with MPH are you saying they dont use the POP mode?
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Certainly this should be done in a video by Vortex explaining how useless Uniden, Escort, and Radenso detectors are in these states. I would say we should only recommend the V1 with POP on or Theia (after tested and proved to be able to detect POP) as the only viable solutions in these states.

Users could be hit hundreds of times by POP and not even know if it if they are running an Escort in these states!
Well I'm not vortex of course but I did a video with all the escorts, radenso, and undien, and they couldn't detect pop unless it was activated
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I’ve heard of urban legend stories of stuff like that... but really who’s tried. Your wasting your time.
You are right, cops dont have to show you sxxx.
 
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Token

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Agreed. In addition to the 67mS time who wants to bet that the rate of drift is greater in that short length of time? Gunn diodes don't really like being pulsed. Didn't they also produce one with a 16mS POP mode? Wonder what the delta MHz/mS looks like on that one and how it affects the accuracy.

In the first 100 msec of on time my Kustom Pro-1000 shifts more than 1 MHz. Meaning the chirp rate is over 10 MHz / sec during that time.

But really, what does that mean? For a range of 3000 meters we are talking about a round trip time of about a round trip time of about 20 microsec. For a chirp rate of 10 MHz/sec that makes a Doppler rate error of up to 200 Hz in that time. So maybe a tad more error than 200 Hz, maybe 3 or 4 MPH error for a K band gun. And shorter ranges would show smaller errors.

Now that is just an example based on my K band radar, and I have no idea if that is representative of others or not. But, that would cover a 67 msec pulse from that particular Gunn diode.

T!
 

Disco47

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The next thing you know, someone will ask if Theia will detect KU band. 😋
 

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