2021 Ford Bronco

CobawLT2010

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I didn't notice this post before... did this really happen? My guess is it didn't. Given how people, and lawyers, are in 2020, if this was something that was occurring there would be headlines and soccer moms freaking out. That's not happening, so sorry, I'm going to have to question the validity of the claim.



My point was that you're thinking about your use case, not everyone's use case. You state yourself you have a limited scope of experience there to support the point. It's great that something works for you. Does that mean it works for all?

This thinking persists because it's true. It's not campfire tales. The physics are on the side of the solid axles in many scenarios, well beyond 2% of them by any measure. It's probably more the reverse... IFS "best" for a very low percentage of scenarios, maybe some washboarded fire roads they excel for comfort and control then that's the only place they're the ideal configuration. There isn't a way to design IFS so that it can deliver what a regular old solid axle can do on the trail. IFS is limited in travel and is limited in it's ability to maintain traction off axis. The're really isn't any way to overcome that no matter what you do or how much money you throw at it. You might be able to compromise and get away with it, sure. And yeah maybe some extreme buggy scenario where you have a massive investment in suspension for some niche off road activity it performs well, but baring those edge cases a basic solid axle will be best.



Every time I'm on the trail with a buggy it has a manual, because the only time I have gone out with any of them is in the north east, and that would be the correct tool for the job there. Again, if you like to run an auto and IFS go for it, Nobody is forcing you to change. It's about the option for those that need it and want it. It's about providing options to meet all needs, not just your needs. There is a difference and that is why Ford missed the mark with IFS and limiting manual on the Bronco.
I shit you not it happened... I was so set on buying one too, because I’ve always loved the wrangler. The salesman was pretty surprised (he was in the car when it happened). I was on I-94 at 80 mph and hit a pothole or expansion joint. I can’t remember. It was a demo vehicle with about 5k on the clock (new IMO). You can call me a liar or whatever... I don’t care... this is the interwebs after all. Scared the living shit out of me since I didn’t even know about the issue before I test drove one... or how common it was... I was only 22-23 back then... tbh I’m surprised I didn’t wreck it.

It wasn’t the 2020 model so I can’t comment on that... it was a JK back when they were relatively new...


Still seems common to me..


Ford not doing a solid front axle design seems like a solid choice to me...
 
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GotWake

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I shit you not it happened... I was so set on buying one too, because I’ve always loved the wrangler. The salesman was pretty surprised (he was in the car when it happened). I was on I-94 at 80 mph and hit a pothole or expansion joint. I can’t remember. It was a demo vehicle with about 5k on the clock (new IMO). You can call me a liar or whatever... I don’t care... this is the interwebs after all. Scared the living shit out of me since I didn’t even know about the issue before I test drove one... or how common it was... I was only 22-23 back then... tbh I’m surprised I didn’t wreck it.

It wasn’t the 2020 model so I can’t comment on that... it was a JK back when they were relatively new...


Still seems common to me..


Ford not doing a solid front axle design seems like a solid choice to me...
Yeah, if you look on the forums, you will see a lot of guys having steering issues with the new Wranglers. 2" dead spot in the steering. Honestly, I've always wanted a Jeep. But, every time I rent a Wrangler, it's kind of a POS. We rented one in Aruba and it rained pretty heavy one day and the thing leaked liked it had an inch hole in the roof. It was brand new with like 50 miles on it. I just could never bring myself to drop $50k on one.

Let's be honest on it. The "Jeep" thing has a lot to do with taking that top off. Out of every person I know that has a Jeep, none of them do any hard wheeling. I would have to drive 1.5 hours to get to any real rocks. I imagine 80+% of Rubicons have never seen a rock. The IFS is going to be perfect for someone like me. And I imagine the aftermarket is really going to take off. There will be suspension improvements available just like for the Jeep.
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This is about rough as I would take a $55k vehicle. It looks the biggest problem most of the IFS vehicles had was due to approach/overhang angles. The Bronco isn't going to have that issue. Really the Badlands and the Rubicon are trail rigs. Real rock crawlers are a whole other ballgame.

 
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CobawLT2010

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Yeah, if you look on the forums, you will see a lot of guys having steering issues with the new Wranglers. 2" dead spot in the steering. Honestly, I've always wanted a Jeep. But, every time I rent a Wrangler, it's kind of a POS. We rented one in Aruba and it rained pretty heavy one day and the thing leaked liked it had an inch hole in the roof. It was brand new with like 50 miles on it. I just could never bring myself to drop $50k on one.

Let's be honest on it. The "Jeep" thing has a lot to do with taking that top off. Out of every person I know that has a Jeep, none of them do any hard wheeling. I would have to drive 1.5 hours to get to any real rocks. I imagine 80+% of Rubicons have never seen a rock. The IFS is going to be perfect for someone like me. And I imagine the aftermarket is really going to take off. There will be suspension improvements available just like for the Jeep.
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This is about rough as I would take a $55k vehicle. It looks the biggest problem most of the IFS vehicles had was due to approach/overhang angles. The Bronco isn't going to have that issue. Really the Badlands and the Rubicon are trail rigs. Real rock crawlers are a whole other ballgame.

It had me at a tough decision... I think I stood on the showroom floor for a good two hours debating about it and a brand new one for about 4K more... TBH after the incident I had already ruled out the demo unit (but you gotta have a reason to sit and think about two cars for a salesman)... and then I felt 32k was too steep for me... I loved the sky blue on the demo unit too... wasn’t too thrilled at the maroon of the BRAND NEW 2 door... and a 4 door was out of the question for me... both were pretty base models too... So I walked...
 

Deacon

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You state yourself you have a limited scope of experience there to support the point.
...what? I realize some people in the northeast told you their manly manual was the right tool for the job. So I guess that’s that?

It's great that something works for you. Does that mean it works for all?
No, of course not. Nearly all.

There isn't a way to design IFS so that it can deliver what a regular old solid axle can do on the trail.
On the trail is the best place for IFS. High clearance, control of each wheel independent of what the other is doing, excellent travel both up and down with fewer suspension and packaging limitations, less unsprung wight and lower overall weight, better off-camber control, it’s all good—as long as its well designed for the task. When well designed, both solid axles and independent suspension can do most jobs well enough. But it sounds like your recalcitrance is based on some late ‘90s Explorer or something. Which when set up well I’ve also seen out-wheel people in tarted-up Wranglers on moderate rocks.

It’s in the big rocks with big power and big wheels and a budget that a solid front axle can be desirable for overall bang for the buck, especially when you can tame their downsides with a thoughtful enough approach to suspension geometry, steering geometry, and and linkage choices that don’t include a sway bar or the absence thereof.

IFS is limited in travel and is limited in it's ability to maintain traction off axis.
Oh man. Off-camber is something I have a lot of experience with. There’s a reason John Currie came up with the Anti-Rock torsion bar setup for solid axles, and it’s because of how poor disconnected solid front axles do off-camber and how limiting to flex it is to leave them connected.

The're really isn't any way to overcome that no matter what you do or how much money you throw at it... And yeah maybe some extreme buggy scenario where you have a massive investment in suspension
Wait. Which is it?

By the way, extreme rock buggies often have solid front axles because they also have extreme power and extreme tire diameters. One area where a solid front axle is able to excel is in brute strength. And even then some of the pros are still eating up built RJ60’s that themselves cost as much as the junk some people run on the trails. And even in that world there are limited resources for IFS because IFS is reserved for the trophy trucks that command the big bucks that everyone says are junk. And few of those buggies run manuals, because for them the bragging rights isn’t how manly you are but actually winning.

PS By buggies I don’t mean weekend project chopped up old Blazers.

It’s immensely frustrating to be met with the same kind of self-assured second-hand arguments I’d run into on the trails from web wheelers who’d insist on this or insist on that because everybody knows that’s the way it is. There are many more broken 10b leaving their metal bits and gear oil behind as there are lowly IFS who have to be winched over an obstacle due sheer mechanical limitations.

There are a number of reasons I probably won’t consider purchasing a new Bronco. IFS is not among them.
 
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hammerdown

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That dash mounting bar is going to be cool for our RDs. I hope they USB-C has enough power output for Theia.

View attachment 155265View attachment 155266
Yes! I saw that too and I 1st thought of mounting an RD before anything else.... kne can see where my priorites are at... lol

And like you already said.. is anyone seriously considering dropping 45-60 grand for one of these Broncos to rock crawl? Really?

if I was a serious rock crawler I would get a buggy. I've never done it but I've watched many videos of rock crawling and I can see a Bronco getting flipped and somebody crying and and insurance companies say nope we're not paying....

I wouldnt use a $45000 Jeep either....

If I was a rock crawler I wouldn't look at a new vehicle that's just absurd. No way your rock crawling all the time without dinging and denting and scratching the shit out of a brand new vehicle. Get an old beater or a buggy so that when you do finally flip it because if your a serious crawler itll eventually happen, you either won't care about the damage or if its a buggy it'll brush it off.
So id rather have IFS and a smoother ride. That's also why I won't get the 7 speed because I won't use the crawler gear.

I want this for offroading at the lake, river, tossing some kayaks on the top and heading into the mountains for a week or so. This would also be a bad ass mobile duck blind at the pond shooting through the open roof. I can park right near the water's edge or even a bit in the water. I want the 4x4, and high clearance mainly. I thought about a Jeep for many years because I like the removable doors and other features of a vehicle like that. Then Ford drops this.... f a jeep. Besides the bad ass body style I like the fact that they did a better job with the removable doors and added features the jeep lacks. Im not super excited over a ecoboost... I'd rather have a naturally aspirated 5.0... non turbo engine as i have had the earlier ecoboosts and have had turbo issues with them. I will certainly buy the extended warranty. Ecoboost isnt a total deal breaker though and I believe the turbos have gotten better since I last owned one.

Also... I plan on in a few years buying a motorhome to travel and do some boonedocking and the bronco would be perfect to tow behind on a trailer with aforesaid kayaks....
 
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Exadata

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Here are some things I don't like:

Plastic oil pan.

Driver assists of all flavors: lane assist, after impact braking etc..... This stuff just adds extra cost. Perhaps, insurance gives you a lower rate because of these features resulting in breaking even but, it's more stuff that can break leading to more repair costs.

Auto start stop: Can be bypassed but, last time I checked you need to buy and install a $100 module to keep it turned off. Or every time you start the car you have to hit an off button. Also A.S.S., adds to the cost of the vehicle and probably bigger repair costs if something goes wrong. Also, the fuel saving are very miniscule for the owner but, helps Ford in the big picture with uncle sams CAFE compliance and avoiding or minimizing fines against Ford. I wish every manufacturer would make A.S.S. an option and not standard. A.S.S. can be deadly, there are articles out there where the driver parked in their garage and though the engine was off when it wasn't and the exhaust worked its way into the home and people died in their sleep.

Electric parking brake: This is a step back in safety with not having an emergency brake. I like in my car that if you were to lose your brakes you still have the emergency brake lever even though it's not that powerful but, better than nothing. With a manual emergency brake you get tactile feedback when you engage it vs. probably an idiot light if an electric has a problem. Also, I'd imagine a electric parking brake adds cost too as there is more than just a lever or foot pedal connected with a cable to the back.

Small turbo engine to make up for not being a bigger regular engine: Turbo adds another part to the engine thus adding another point of failure to the engine and additional costs for repairs. Also, a turbo engine will add cost vs. a non-turbo engine. Once again, this engine is more of Ford and CAFE standards and less about what the consumer(demand) really wants.

Anyway, it would be really cool if they came out with a Raptor edition!:)
 

robbyb413

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Yeah, if you look on the forums, you will see a lot of guys having steering issues with the new Wranglers. 2" dead spot in the steering.
Most people posting on forums about Jeeps don't know anything about Jeeps. Or trucks. In this case, I did just google that and it looks like it's the steering box, and so this is flawed design or mis-adjustment of the lash and isn't something related to IFS vs SFA. Or the Bronco.

As a prime example of how Jeep owners tend to mess around, throw random parts at things, then wonder why it doesn't work look at this thread here talking about this dead spot you bring up:


...what? I realize some people in the northeast told you their manly manual was the right tool for the job. So I guess that’s that?
No, you said yourself you have very limited experience. You rock crawl (one activity) in your home area (one place). That's not giving you a really strong indicator of different types of off roading in different types of environments.

On the trail is the best place for IFS. High clearance, control of each wheel independent of what the other is doing, excellent travel both up and down with fewer suspension and packaging limitations, less unsprung wight and lower overall weight, better off-camber control, it’s all good—as long as its well designed for the task. When well designed, both solid axles and independent suspension can do most jobs well enough. But it sounds like your recalcitrance is based on some late ‘90s Explorer or something. Which when set up well I’ve also seen out-wheel people in tarted-up Wranglers on moderate rocks.
All of this is an apologists tale for IFS. This is classic wheeling on paper stuff. Sure it has clearance in places where the solid axle doesn't, but in order to keep suspension geometry proper for on-road handling and proper vehicle operation there's not a large amount of clearance as you still need to connect the control arms in a way that keep them at a certain angle to the road there in the end PLUS now you have LCAs exposed so which are much more fragile and vulnerable than dragging a pumpkin over a rock now and then. You say it has "Excellent teavel both up and down" but that is not the case at all. It is much more limited. The bushings/ball joins are both restrictive and limited in travel, and since in order for the tire to move vertically it must also move horizontally it will then be more limited by the space for the UCA on top and the LCA on the bottom. Better off-camber control is not achieved with IFS because it has no ability to use the other side of the axle to force a wheel into contact with the ground, this is a very clear advantage of the SFA. Talking about unsprung weight and wight overall is at best strawman argument as this is not time trials in a spec race car, so there is no really no on-trail advantage to this (unless you intend to apply the skinny pedal in a way that would break your axles anyway at which point that's operator error), and honestly the weight of the solid axles work out to be a benefit in terms of keeping the center of gravity as low as possible and keeping the wheels on the ground.

It’s immensely frustrating to be met with the same kind of self-assured second-hand arguments I’d run into on the trails from web wheelers who’d insist on this or insist on that because everybody knows that’s the way it is. There are many more broken 10b leaving their metal bits and gear oil behind as there are lowly IFS who have to be winched over an obstacle due sheer mechanical limitations.
It's funny you say that, because between confusing your own use case for the "most people" and your seemingly paper-based rather than experience-based IFS points it doesn't seem like you have a ton of real-world experience. It's not unlike when we disagreed over tires in another thread, similar things. I just don't think you've had a ton of experience and think you would benefit from better and broader understanding. 🤷

In truth, the Bronco would be a better all-around off roader for more use cases if it had a SFA because the SFA is a better tool for off roading than IFS. If it had the option to marry that with a manual all around rather than with limited choices it would be better for more people, as depending on the person and conditions they will want to choose the transmission that is best for their needs and purposes. As is, it the Wrangler will suit more use cases and more people off road than the Bronco because it has the SFA and you can choose your transmission.
 

Deacon

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No, you said yourself you have very limited experience. You rock crawl (one activity) in your home area (one place). That's not giving you a really strong indicator of different types of off roading in different types of environments.

I just don't think you've had a ton of experience and think you would benefit from better and broader understanding. 🤷
Ugh. I never said anything of the sort. That’s your assumption, a poor and patronizing one at that. I’ve run all sorts of off-roading environments from Texas to Utah and back. Thankfully I have more experience than something someone told me once.
 

robbyb413

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I asked your experience, you said "I crawl rocks" which was you yourself stating only one type of off roading. Your own words. That plus omitting any area is a reasonable indicator that you have limited geographic experience, which you just confirmed by elaborating with "Texas to Utah and back." Despite you calling that "all sorts of off-roading environments" is actually really quite similar and since you're only rock crawling really you're talking about nearly identical in technical requirements. Is it really an assumption and patronizing when it's what you're actually saying?

I've got 9 states. CA, UT, NV, and AZ out west and ME, NH, VT, CT, and MA, so we share common knowledge/experiences plus I have experiences/knowledge you don't. It is ironic indeed that you are trying to state I'm going on something I heard when you yourself are on a lower level of experience.

I also did a trail in Nova Scotia back in 2010, so I guess 9 states, 1 Province to be specific.and complete.

You and me debating this is actually somewhat analogous to the IFS vs SFA discussion:

Just like you can have an IFS and dump money into it only to be shown up by a run of the mill SFA setup, you can talk about offroading all you want and I'll still be talking about it with more experience and trail knowledge.

Sorry. 🤷
 
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CobawLT2010

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I asked your experience, you said "I crawl rocks" which was you yourself stating only one type of off roading. Your own words. That plus omitting any area is a reasonable indicator that you have limited geographic experience, which you just confirmed by elaborating with "Texas to Utah and back." Despite you calling that "all sorts of off-roading environments" is actually really quite similar and since you're only rock crawling really you're talking about nearly identical in technical requirements. Is it really an assumption and patronizing when it's what you're actually saying?

I've got 9 states. CA, UT, NV, and AZ out west and ME, NH, VT, CT, and MA, so we share common knowledge/experiences plus I have experiences/knowledge you don't. It is ironic indeed that you are trying to state I'm going on something I heard when you yourself are on a lower level of experience.

I also did a trail in Nova Scotia back in 2010, so I guess 9 states, 1 Province to be specific.and complete.

You and me debating this is actually somewhat analogous to the IFS vs SFA discussion:

Just like you can have an IFS and dump money into it only to be shown up by a run of the mill SFA setup, you can talk about offroading all you want and I'll still be talking about it with more experience and trail knowledge.

Sorry. 🤷
Most people posting on forums about Jeeps don't know anything about Jeeps. Or trucks. In this case, I did just google that and it looks like it's the steering box, and so this is flawed design or mis-adjustment of the lash and isn't something related to IFS vs SFA. Or the Bronco.

As a prime example of how Jeep owners tend to mess around, throw random parts at things, then wonder why it doesn't work look at this thread here talking about this dead spot you bring up:




No, you said yourself you have very limited experience. You rock crawl (one activity) in your home area (one place). That's not giving you a really strong indicator of different types of off roading in different types of environments.



All of this is an apologists tale for IFS. This is classic wheeling on paper stuff. Sure it has clearance in places where the solid axle doesn't, but in order to keep suspension geometry proper for on-road handling and proper vehicle operation there's not a large amount of clearance as you still need to connect the control arms in a way that keep them at a certain angle to the road there in the end PLUS now you have LCAs exposed so which are much more fragile and vulnerable than dragging a pumpkin over a rock now and then. You say it has "Excellent teavel both up and down" but that is not the case at all. It is much more limited. The bushings/ball joins are both restrictive and limited in travel, and since in order for the tire to move vertically it must also move horizontally it will then be more limited by the space for the UCA on top and the LCA on the bottom. Better off-camber control is not achieved with IFS because it has no ability to use the other side of the axle to force a wheel into contact with the ground, this is a very clear advantage of the SFA. Talking about unsprung weight and wight overall is at best strawman argument as this is not time trials in a spec race car, so there is no really no on-trail advantage to this (unless you intend to apply the skinny pedal in a way that would break your axles anyway at which point that's operator error), and honestly the weight of the solid axles work out to be a benefit in terms of keeping the center of gravity as low as possible and keeping the wheels on the ground.



It's funny you say that, because between confusing your own use case for the "most people" and your seemingly paper-based rather than experience-based IFS points it doesn't seem like you have a ton of real-world experience. It's not unlike when we disagreed over tires in another thread, similar things. I just don't think you've had a ton of experience and think you would benefit from better and broader understanding. 🤷

In truth, the Bronco would be a better all-around off roader for more use cases if it had a SFA because the SFA is a better tool for off roading than IFS. If it had the option to marry that with a manual all around rather than with limited choices it would be better for more people, as depending on the person and conditions they will want to choose the transmission that is best for their needs and purposes. As is, it the Wrangler will suit more use cases and more people off road than the Bronco because it has the SFA and you can choose your transmission.
Funny when I live right next to a Dana plant and have spoken to numerous engineers about this specific issue on the Jeep and they have said it is due to SFA. At low speeds it is really a non issue but when you deal with high speed handling SFA is prone to the tendency for wheel hop and balancing issues. There is A LOT of work put into the geometry of these suspensions to limit this from occurring but it’s a difficult thing to design around in high speed applications.

Got to love living in an engineering college town... You get to talk and meet so many people that put their heart and soul into so many different products. It also helps that I have worked in the auto industry for a short time...

Quite frankly I’m sure there are a lot of SFA vehicles where death wobble has never occurred... but to get it right... and the first time is a difficult thing to do. If it was easy we’d still be driving full framed vehicles with solid axles in everything we drive.
 

GotWake

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I just can’t wait until we see pictures at the top of some of the hard trails.

It sounds like they have 230k reservations.

09A16897-DAA0-43BB-AAC4-DF76F03DF00B.jpeg
063DA8C0-9C83-43BC-A9C7-7A858514F915.jpeg
 

Deacon

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I asked your experience, you said "I crawl rocks" which was you yourself stating only one type of off roading. Your own words.
I didn’t say I ONLY crawl rocks. But that’s certainly the one people go to as the only real are where “common knowledge” is that SFA is inherently hands-down superior. I didn’t think I had to list my entire off-road resume to satisfy web wheelers.

That plus omitting any area is a reasonable indicator that you have limited geographic experience, which you just confirmed by elaborating with "Texas to Utah and back."
If you think that constitutes “limited geographic experience”, you should try it some time.
 

robbyb413

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Funny when I live right next to a Dana plant and have spoken to numerous engineers about this specific issue on the Jeep and they have said it is due to SFA. At low speeds it is really a non issue but when you deal with high speed handling SFA is prone to the tendency for wheel hop and balancing issues. There is A LOT of work put into the geometry of these suspensions to limit this from occurring but it’s a difficult thing to design around in high speed applications.

Got to love living in an engineering college town... You get to talk and meet so many people that put their heart and soul into so many different products. It also helps that I have worked in the auto industry for a short time...

Quite frankly I’m sure there are a lot of SFA vehicles where death wobble has never occurred... but to get it right... and the first time is a difficult thing to do. If it was easy we’d still be driving full framed vehicles with solid axles in everything we drive.
Living next to the Dana plant and hearing one or two (or none.. it's probably really none) employees talk about Jeep axles doesn't give you any real evidence or information than me sitting in the office where a fighter jet was originally designed makes me some sort of aerospace insider. And what did you do in the auto industry? Lots of jobs there, so not entirely sure it's relevant and introducing it sounds like you're reaching here for things that aren't relevant to the discussion. Neither of those things have anything to do with either SFA being better off road than IFS, or even with the concept that you're pushing that because a very small number of Jeeps have death wobble that it would have any bearing on the Bronco.

The concept of "high speed" being introduced has nothing to do with off roading either. Off roading is not a high speed activity, the Jeep/Bronco are not high speed vehicles. They do 80-85 with huge tires on them and they are fine, and then they kind of cap out on speed so this high speed doesn't even enter the picture on these 4x4s. Rest assured, the SFA on any vehicle on the road is going to be safe enough to use for most people to drive. There are safety standards after all, and many would argue that beyond that there are lawyers and actuaries and all sorts of other people who are concerned with making sure the auto maker is unlikely to take a hit by putting out something with a known defect.

There are many many SFA vehicles were death wobble never occurred, yes, because it's not a common thing at all, Jeep or otherwise. As a great example of that, the Ford F-series, which is among the best selling vehicles on the planet, has a history of including and still includes SFA at present. Where are all the people unable to operate their vehicle due to their wheels teetering about unsafely? The Dana 60 swaps for Jeeps I believe would be most commonly sourced from Fords because it's apparently a pretty decent axle. The concept of difficulty "getting it right the first time" would be largely irrelevant since Ford has plenty of experience with a live front axle on their 4x4 products. Ford wouldn't have to work terribly hard to draw from decades of their own internal knowledge of how to equip production vehicles with a SFA in a safe and reliable way in order to get one on the Bronco without the wheels falling off.

Finally your last point - that is again not relevant to this topic. Agreed: The advantages of unibody and independent suspension for on-road manners and comfort, plus cost of production, are documented, and that is why those are commonplace. But this isn't a commonplace vehicle we're talking about and this isn't about debating IFS vs SFA on every vehicle so that has no bearing on this discussion. This isn't built to be a 3rd option for the CamCord crowd who's looking for a cheap appliance vehicle that gets them around town comfortably. The Bronco is advertised as the alternative choice to the Jeep wrangler, which itself is positioned as the leading choice for off roading and touts it's SFA as key to that. It isn't about being fast, it isn't about being the most comfortable on-road, and it isn't really about making the cheapest vehicle - all points where you'd want to say IFS is a great choice. What it is about is the perception that this vehicle is going to go off-road and be very good at that. Within that context, it's not supposed to be the most comfortable or compliant ON road as that would conflict with it's manners OFF road. Choosing IFS on that vehicle over a SFA is a compromise and something that dilutes the quality and usefulness of the product. Ford themselves gave very on-road focused reasons for this. On the first page I quoted the article where Ford explained their choice It wasn't because designing a SFA was hard. It wasn't because of cost. It wasn't because it's as good off road as a SFA. It was because the comfort would appeal to the masses, which as I said was just a bad reason to do it.
 
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WBDubya

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Jeep should be in full panic mode with 230k reservations in 2 weeks.


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robbyb413

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If you think that constitutes “limited geographic experience”, you should try it some time.
I think it's weird that I keep telling you I have offloaded there in this thread, and to a lesser extent weird that you don't recall it's come up in another thread that you're "neighbors" with my family in the DFW area (Southlake/Westlake/Trophy Club - it's not like it's a huge forum and we don't kind of remember eachother) so I'm very familiar with the trail conditions in the states you wheel in and at least aware of the conditions in TX despite not having been able to use my own rig there. What can I do though? You do you back there with your IFS, I'll be up front with the SFAs. 👍
 
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Deacon

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I think it's weird that I keep telling you I have offloaded there
There is a MASSIVE area of incredibly different terrains, obstacles, elevations, considerations, all of it. Good lord. If you think “Texas” presents one wheeling opportunity, “Colorado” another, and so on, I don’t know what to even do with that.
 

CobawLT2010

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Living next to the Dana plant and hearing one or two (or none.. it's probably really none) employees talk about Jeep axles doesn't give you any real evidence or information than me sitting in the office where a fighter jet was originally designed makes me some sort of aerospace insider. And what did you do in the auto industry? Lots of jobs there, so not entirely sure it's relevant and introducing it sounds like you're reaching here for things that aren't relevant to the discussion. Neither of those things have anything to do with either SFA being better off road than IFS, or even with the concept that you're pushing that because a very small number of Jeeps have death wobble that it would have any bearing on the Bronco.

The concept of "high speed" being introduced has nothing to do with off roading either. Off roading is not a high speed activity, the Jeep/Bronco are not high speed vehicles. They do 80-85 with huge tires on them and they are fine, and then they kind of cap out on speed so this high speed doesn't even enter the picture on these 4x4s. Rest assured, the SFA on any vehicle on the road is going to be safe enough to use for most people to drive. There are safety standards after all, and many would argue that beyond that there are lawyers and actuaries and all sorts of other people who are concerned with making sure the auto maker is unlikely to take a hit by putting out something with a known defect.

There are many many SFA vehicles were death wobble never occurred, yes, because it's not a common thing at all, Jeep or otherwise. As a great example of that, the Ford F-series, which is among the best selling vehicles on the planet, has a history of including and still includes SFA at present. Where are all the people unable to operate their vehicle due to their wheels teetering about unsafely? The Dana 60 swaps for Jeeps I believe would be most commonly sourced from Fords because it's apparently a pretty decent axle. The concept of difficulty "getting it right the first time" would be largely irrelevant since Ford has plenty of experience with a live front axle on their 4x4 products. Ford wouldn't have to work terribly hard to draw from decades of their own internal knowledge of how to equip production vehicles with a SFA in a safe and reliable way in order to get one on the Bronco without the wheels falling off.

Finally your last point - that is again not relevant to this topic. Agreed: The advantages of unibody and independent suspension for on-road manners and comfort, plus cost of production, are documented, and that is why those are commonplace. But this isn't a commonplace vehicle we're talking about and this isn't about debating IFS vs SFA on every vehicle so that has no bearing on this discussion. This isn't built to be a 3rd option for the CamCord crowd who's looking for a cheap appliance vehicle that gets them around town comfortably. The Bronco is advertised as the alternative choice to the Jeep wrangler, which itself is positioned as the leading choice for off roading and touts it's SFA as key to that. It isn't about being fast, it isn't about being the most comfortable on-road, and it isn't really about making the cheapest vehicle - all points where you'd want to say IFS is a great choice. What it is about is the perception that this vehicle is going to go off-road and be very good at that. Within that context, it's not supposed to be the most comfortable or compliant ON road as that would conflict with it's manners OFF road. Choosing IFS on that vehicle over a SFA is a compromise and something that dilutes the quality and usefulness of the product. Ford themselves gave very on-road focused reasons for this. On the first page I quoted the article where Ford explained their choice It wasn't because designing a SFA was hard. It wasn't because of cost. It wasn't because it's as good off road as a SFA. It was because the comfort would appeal to the masses, which as I said was just a bad reason to do it.
I worked at Delphi... no it didn’t have much to do with off-roading at all. My line of work was in module communications. I actually do some work in aerospace research now alongside my database job.

The truth of the matter is when it comes to designing vehicles they need to curtail to what the customer needs and that’s what the OEM’s job is to do. 99.5% of these vehicles will never go true off-roading nor do they need to. Hell they barely need any sort of trail rating any more. They need to be designed for those 99.5% of people who daily their vehicles. Independent suspension handles better and is the future because of all the issues with NVH among other issues I have mentioned it solves. The job is to get vehicles sold... not to coddle to one particular demographic... sounds to me that your just sore that they chose the option you weren’t looking for and the one most people would rather have. These will be gobbled up by the soccer moms and the hipsters who are looking for something cool. These will be far more likely to be seen in a mall parking lot just like the f series you mentioned... rather than hauling a load or trailblazing or off-roading or crawling...

Almost any modern vehicle will have defects... and as you said there are lawyers for those situations... why did FCA then get sued for death wobble then? Why did GM get sued for ignition switches? Why did Toyota get sued for accelerator and carpet issues? Hell... TAKATA...

Again I state as others have... their job is to sell to the masses... get sales for the bean counters... and appeal to the masses... you’re out of touch with the auto industry as a whole.
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I didn’t say I ONLY crawl rocks. But that’s certainly the one people go to as the only real are where “common knowledge” is that SFA is inherently hands-down superior. I didn’t think I had to list my entire off-road resume to satisfy web wheelers.


If you think that constitutes “limited geographic experience”, you should try it some time.
Deacon... you’re wasting your time with this guy...
 
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GotWake

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Jeep should be in full panic mode with 230k reservations in 2 weeks.


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I‘m sure some have a couple reservations at different dealerships so they can not gets screwed with the pricing. I think this guy got this many......

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