What does a Bushnell gun look like? Bushnell vs. Stalker vs. Cadillac BSM

InsipidMonkey

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I’m still saying that a lot of these BSM’s could be filtered on a superhet if new programming logic And software were developed. Not to the effect of Thea but still... it could be done.
This is an interesting point...

Would it be possible to take a "legacy detector" with an FPGA, train an AI on BSMs and real radar guns using the RF front end, and run a NN on the FPGA to classify the signals and filter out BSMs?

Obviously the RF front end in Theia is much more sophisticated than anything we've seen before, but is a single conversion receiver with I/Q demodulation really required to filter out BSM? Or is it overkill for that application?

To put it another way, if Escort had hired Rob and Sterling, could they have saved the Max series?
 

cihkal

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This is an interesting point...

Would it be possible to take a "legacy detector" with an FPGA, train an AI on BSMs and real radar guns using the RF front end, and run a NN on the FPGA to classify the signals and filter out BSMs?

Obviously the RF front end in Theia is much more sophisticated than anything we've seen before, but is a single conversion receiver with I/Q demodulation really required to filter out BSM? Or is it overkill for that application?

To put it another way, if Escort had hired Rob and Sterling, could they have saved the Max series?
Definitely would have made it a lot better, but probably would have reached the limits of the hardware too quickly.

I don't know how fast the scan is on the Max, but the related patent left a lot to be desired.

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Jon at Radenso

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Thanks for sharing Jon.

I’m still saying that a lot of these BSM’s could be filtered on a superhet if new programming logic And software were developed. Not to the effect of Thea but still... it could be done.
I agree with you. A lot of BSMs could be filtered out without AI. It would take longer of course, but it's definitely doable.
 

cihkal

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I agree with you. A lot of BSMs could be filtered out without AI. It would take longer of course, but it's definitely doable.
Right, and where your implementation has a distinct advantage is it's very manageable. You're able to respond to changing RF emitters very quickly while others must develop a means to cope via more traditional methods.

It puts those using legacy hardware at a huge disadvantage. I mean if you look at the V1 its BSM filter has remained unchanged for around five years. Yikes.

Five years... that's insane. Just imagine where your company could be in five years based on your current trajectory. You'll accomplish a lot more than keeping your BSM filtering capabilities the same.

Oh wait, they're not even a concern to begin with when talking about theia lol.

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OBeerWANKenobi

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Wow, that Bushnell sure is "noisy" and " similar to false alert signals".

Now I'm curious....do you happen to have a shot of a Decatur Genesis 1 @Jon at Radenso?
 

NorEaster18

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Wow, that Bushnell sure is "noisy" and " similar to false alert signals".

Now I'm curious....do you happen to have a shot of a Decatur Genesis 1 @Jon at Radenso?
Also interested in this. It's not a Bushnell, but it is another basic Part 15 gun. Does the signal become "cleaner" when complexity is added to a gun?
 

Heywood

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Sorry guys.... yes I was being sarcastic. Thanks Jon

The Bushnell has a little more .... let’s call it fuzz.... around the edges, it’s not as defined on the edges as the Stalker, but it’s defiantly distinctive enough to recognize that it’s a CW signal.

It’s nowhere bad enough that Escort can claim that they can pick it out and tell the difference/block it ....... vs. how the Cadillac BSM looks like , yet Escort has issues with things like that and door openers.

It’s really a big cup of nonsense that Escort is pushing on people that they believe are gullible.
Deny, Deflect, Discount, Discourage,

I’m all for Escort being here, but maybe say “you don’t know” or “you’ll look into it” rather than making statements that insults our intelligence.
 
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TurboDriver

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How close was the gun to the receiver? Are there oscillations that may exist and be detectable when gun is really close to detector?

Escorts (Max's) have been said to have a problem with the Bushnell when it's very close to the detector, or is it likely an over driving issue if anything? I've even noticed my Uniden and NRDSP being finicky if the Bushnell is triggered very close to the detector. I've never really noticed it with my Redline though.
 

westwind77

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There is something funky going on with the Max and the Bushnell. As I have said before mine was thought to be 'sleeping' with the Bushnell as it would alert a majority of times, but then suddenly not.....but once I received the HR for testing every time the 360 ignored the Bushnell it would alert instantly to the HR.

Do I believe the 360 is 'filtering' it out.....yes (to a point)....as it still alerts to the HR without an issue.

I can do 'random testing' with the Bushnell to get actual numbers but if I had to guess I would say the 360 alerts 95% of the time to the Bushnell - IF Escort is trying to actually filter it out.....that is a poor %.

There are still so many unanswered questions to really get a 'line of truth' at the moment though.
 

Jon at Radenso

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How close was the gun to the receiver? Are there oscillations that may exist and be detectable when gun is really close to detector?

Escorts (Max's) have been said to have a problem with the Bushnell when it's very close to the detector, or is it likely an over driving issue if anything? I've even noticed my Uniden and NRDSP being finicky if the Bushnell is triggered very close to the detector. I've never really noticed it with my Redline though.
When a gun is overdriving the receiver distortion appears as what looks like sidebands (spikes to the left and the right of the main carrier). It kind of looks like a trident.

Escort is definitively not trying to filter the Bushnell out. It's a CW gun. Hell, it's even used by police in Mexico.

One thing I HAVE noticed on the Bushnells is that the frequency drifts quite a bit when the emitter warms up. It is possible your gun is drifting in and out of the passband of Escort's K band. The guns I have (about 10 of them) vary from 24.08ghz to 24.225 as well for their center frequency.

Has anyone tried seeing if the Max 360C still "filters out" the Bushnell when you open up the gun and adjust the pot in the Bushnell to be dead center of K band 24.150? Would be hilarious if the gun is just drifting in and out of the K passband instead of being "filtered out" because it "looks like false signals."

Either way, they are not intentionally trying to filter it out.
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Wow, that Bushnell sure is "noisy" and " similar to false alert signals".

Now I'm curious....do you happen to have a shot of a Decatur Genesis 1 @Jon at Radenso?
Genesis.....no different from a door opener or a Bushnell to a legacy detector.


Screen Shot 2019-11-19 at 8.42.30 PM.png
Screen Shot 2019-11-19 at 8.42.45 PM.png
 
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OBeerWANKenobi

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For Escort, it might be something about signals around the 24.150 range. As I mentioned in the other thread, the Max 2 that bkayrac has won't alert to a Genesis 1, well, at least a certain Genesis 1. All the other detectors we had alerted to it as normal.
 

Jon at Radenso

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Also, I just want to reiterate for the Escort execs viewing this thread - I have patents pending on use of machine learning and AI in radar detectors, quadrature/complex front ends in radar detectors (6 different ways of using complex data), and CW discrimination by name presented to the UI and for filtering purposes. And I will defend them aggressively.
 

oversteer325

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Thank you @Jon at Radenso for these visuals. I really enjoy being able to see the differences in each of these emitters and it’s great that you are willing to share these with the community. I feel like I have a much better understanding of CW vs BSMs thanks to your posts.
 

Jon at Radenso

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Thank you @Jon at Radenso for these visuals. I really enjoy being able to see the differences in each of these emitters and it’s great that you are willing to share these with the community. I feel like I have a much better understanding of CW vs BSMs thanks to your posts.
That's the idea man. We have been kept in the dark so long about this stuff that we have been forced to take manufacturer's word for so many things that were wrong. Well, that didn't work out too great for users like me who desired freedom from BSMs and a detector with better range.

Information is power and going forward I am going to look into ways to get as much information as possible into the hands of customers. Maybe even building a RF test set and getting it into the hands of the community here so you don't have to take my word for it, but rather can fact check every manufacturer for yourselves.
 

cihkal

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cihkal

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Also, I just want to reiterate for the Escort execs viewing this thread - I have patents pending on use of machine learning and AI in radar detectors, quadrature/complex front ends in radar detectors (6 different ways of using complex data), and CW discrimination by name presented to the UI and for filtering purposes. And I will defend them aggressively.
Bingo I'll smoke to that. Hell I'll even splurge and sip on a good whiskey.

I'm just loving that theia is coming in 2020. What a great coincidence.

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Vancity23

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Wow. Yeah I remember Rob mentioning you guys are able to see handshake and things like that. Does that affect Theia's ability to recognize the gun as a Stalker?

In practice when out driving, do you think you'd be able to still see that? I'm sure there's a lot more going driving down the road vs sitting in a lab. Do realworld dynamics and noise impact your ability to still correctly inference these guns?
Vortex I don't know if seeing that is an option, but I heard them say, you will be see/display as little or as much as you want...
 

Fadelight

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While so many pictures are being posted here - I have a question to add...

What do traffic light sensors look like?

Follow up - If an officer is sitting at an intersection, and their K band radar is at [or nearly at] the exact frequency, will Theia be able to distinguish between them?

I ask because last Thursday I ran into this exact situation on my way home from work. There is a traffic light sensor at 24.057, and I've been running with that light GPS locked out for the past 3 months. On Thursday, I had an officer tag me from right at the intersection and my detector never made a peep. (obviously.) I've been keeping a log of all of my contacts for about 2 years now, So I went back through them to see if I could figure out what happened. 50+ encounters with VT state police, and every single one of them was 24.053 - 24.059.

I've been wondering ever since that night - how would Theia react to that?
 

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