High performance AS tires vs Performance Winter tires

omgboost

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I have used DWS on my car for a few Winters and they were great.

Doesn't Canada require you to have snow tires in the winter?
 

angrypenguin

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I have question for u. Being that u lived in a place where salt use has been used to what seems like forever. How is the infrastructure with the salt use

Here edmonton. They will continue using cacl and nacl. They say they are driven by data which says accidents are down. Blah blah blah. Off course any one can deduce that before a study because it’s closer or at pavement with salt use

The kicker is. I read the study the city had done. The report flat out says they have no worthy in data for the effects of salt use on the infrastructure because more time is needed.

However the city fails to me mention that

I used to auto tech. And when I worked on vehicles from out east. I couldnt believe
Salt is a necessary evil and if it were up to me we'd handle winter weather like in the Prairies. There it gets so cold that salt doesn't work so they use sand. Even with all season tires on rental cars I'm fine there.

Id prefer no salt but there's no getting away from bad drivers! Beats beet juice or whatever crap Calgary is up to these days!
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I have used DWS on my car for a few Winters and they were great.

Doesn't Canada require you to have snow tires in the winter?
Only in Quebec.
 

TheSkyIsFalling

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Salt is a necessary evil and if it were up to me we'd handle winter weather like in the Prairies. There it gets so cold that salt doesn't work so they use sand. Even with all season tires on rental cars I'm fine there.

Id prefer no salt but there's no getting away from bad drivers! Beats beet juice or whatever crap Calgary is up to these days!
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Only in Quebec.

That’s what the perception of what it’s like about the prairies. And for sure we get to -20c. But it’s not like we are at -20c everyday for 4 months

The city here always used salt. But the ratio to sand/gravel mix was extremely like 6% on roads and 10% on bridge decks and areas around our river valley. That was the use forever regardless of the month


The reality here is that we get a lot of days where daytime highs are in the. -5 to -15c range. Where the city now feels it’s a great idea to use salt.

So this what the city does. Before a snowfall they spray a layer of cacl so the snow melts immediately. If snow accumulates. Nacl is throw down to melt the snow.

Our are rightful so concerned about corrosion from Salt use on personal property. But the city doesn’t care and uses data to make decisions

My garage cable snapped on the side where I park my car. The other side cable is perfect. Have a look at white residue left behind and the rust on things on the side where I park
A4ACAE42-2934-414D-8849-B2FDAEC9578E.jpeg
16350A19-73CC-4AB8-8637-B1709693C6DE.jpeg
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angrypenguin

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That’s what the perception of what it’s like about the prairies. And for sure we get to -20c. But it’s not like we are at -20c everyday for 4 months

The city here always used salt. But the ratio to sand/gravel mix was extremely like 6% on roads and 10% on bridge decks and areas around our river valley. That was the use forever regardless of the month


The reality here is that we get a lot of days where daytime highs are in the. -5 to -15c range. Where the city now feels it’s a great idea to use salt.

So this what the city does. Before a snowfall they spray a layer of cacl so the snow melts immediately. If snow accumulates. Nacl is throw down to melt the snow.

Our are rightful so concerned about corrosion from Salt use on personal property. But the city doesn’t care and uses data to make decisions

My garage cable snapped on the side where I park my car. The other side cable is perfect. Have a look at white residue left behind and the rust on things on the side where I park View attachment 129329View attachment 129330View attachment 129331
It's like we live in a parallel universe. I have spent a big part of my life in Saskatoon and Regina in the winter and I don't think I recall seeing salt in the dead of February/March. Either way, friendly banter aside I am very much onboard with you that the salt is the devil.

If only stupid drivers would stay home all winter and leave the rest of us to drive on the snow/ice that would be great!! seriously great.
 

TheSkyIsFalling

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It's like we live in a parallel universe. I have spent a big part of my life in Saskatoon and Regina in the winter and I don't think I recall seeing salt in the dead of February/March. Either way, friendly banter aside I am very much onboard with you that the salt is the devil.

If only stupid drivers would stay home all winter and leave the rest of us to drive on the snow/ice that would be great!! seriously great.

My cable snapped on the Friday of the May weekend so all dedicated garage door places where closed. And Home Depot and places only had old style door cables Which is f up because my door is what has been the norm for at least 30 years.

So I ended having to make a cable. Literally spent 8hr Friday messing with my door. And no pro is coming out either on Friday night on a long weekend

I was so frustrated and pissed off to that point that I knew I couldn’t drive alone to anywhere to get parts. Had to get my neighbor me. If I were to haven driven alone and some idiot driver did anything to irk me. I would have lost it. Even the simplest thing. Like not turning when there was a big enough to turn.
 

DC Fluid

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Just to supply the OP with more information here is a snap shot of high performance and ultra high performance all seasons on consumer reports.
Even though I live in the far north and have dedicated Blizzaks for my truck, I use the all season Michelin Defenders too rated by CR and they were absolutely correct in their evaluations. They are strong winter performers when caught in the fall blizzards when I can't get to my winter set.
Anyways, just the first screen shot of each category.
Let me know which tires you are most interested in and I will post the individual ratings for performance by category.
Screenshot_20190831-200123_Consumer Reports.jpg
Screenshot_20190831-200154_Consumer Reports.jpg
 

SVG

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I have Blizzak LM-32s on 17" rims for winter. I am definitely disappointed in their snow+ice grip once they're even halfway through their life. Dry grip is pretty great for a winter tire, but I do wonder if some a/s3+ would be better overall. They weren't exactly cheap, either.
I had Blizzaks on my list when I was researching snow tires and this was a somewhat frequent complaint. Excellent grip until about 50% tread left.
 

DC Fluid

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A half worn Blizzak is reaching the point that the ultra sticky compound changes to the standard winter compound underneath for durability and tread stability.
A 50 % Blizzak is far superior than a 50 % all-season.
Every new tire seems like the best ever, until worn down and replaced with new, rinse and repeat....
 

TheSkyIsFalling

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I feel the epitome of tread design was greatest when nokian came with this tread pattern. Lots of other name brand competitors and Chinese tires copied it. Nokian has been refining this tread pattern and others continue to copy the new tire treads. I have driven with this design and new designs. But I prefer the old design and I drive on snow tires til there is nothing left

7F206232-0A10-4D2B-8710-63A13FF7D786.jpeg
 

angrypenguin

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A half worn Blizzak is reaching the point that the ultra sticky compound changes to the standard winter compound underneath for durability and tread stability.
A 50 % Blizzak is far superior than a 50 % all-season.
Every new tire seems like the best ever, until worn down and replaced with new, rinse and repeat....
The problem is that the Blizzak uses a multicell compound for the first X% (I thought it was 80%, but I don't remember) which gives it beyond mindblowing performance at the cost of increased tread wear. If I were to run a dedicated set of snows, I'd run the Michelin XIce line tires which use the same tread compound throughout the tire. It also comes with a mileage warranty to boot, and like most, if not all Michelins, are easy to balance.
 

SVG

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The problem is that the Blizzak uses a multicell compound for the first X% (I thought it was 80%, but I don't remember) which gives it beyond mindblowing performance at the cost of increased tread wear. If I were to run a dedicated set of snows, I'd run the Michelin XIce line tires which use the same tread compound throughout the tire. It also comes with a mileage warranty to boot, and like most, if not all Michelins, are easy to balance.
I've been impressed with every set of Michelins I've had in my lifetime. Never had a winter set though. I'd imagine they're excellent as well.

I like the Nokians on my car so much I also bought a set of the studded LT version for my 3/4 ton pickup.
 

DC Fluid

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The problem is that the Blizzak uses a multicell compound for the first X% (I thought it was 80%, but I don't remember) which gives it beyond mindblowing performance at the cost of increased tread wear. If I were to run a dedicated set of snows, I'd run the Michelin XIce line tires which use the same tread compound throughout the tire. It also comes with a mileage warranty to boot, and like most, if not all Michelins, are easy to balance.
I love the X ice series of tires.
They may go on my truck next time.
Blizzaks in CR and in customer reviews and in our Canadian North have tested as the Best extreme weather tire.
Dry/wet roads, handling, wear, not so much.
Michelin shine everywhere, but have struggled with deep deep snow because of the fine tread where the Blizzaks have lugs.
I drive my bosses new Ram with Michelin X Ice and for highway driving I would want nothing else.
I will put the X Ice on the wife's SUV next as they would be better all around than her Blizzaks.
 

robbyb413

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I’m not shocked. Some self-appointed experts like to claim that all-season tires are worthless below 40F, despite the fact that that’s exactly what AS tires were created for in the first place, they’re confusing AS with summer-only tires, and that today’s tires differ dramatically from what was available in 1983 or whenever it was someone planted that idea in their head.
You're amusing in all the tire threads. You could be called Jon Snowtires, because you're like Jon in GOT where you may know some things, but those things are not tires - snow or otherwise. ;)

lived in snow my entire life. Haven't seen an all season perform like winter tires ever. I don't know what tire rack is smoking, it's just not reality.
Bkayrac gets it, because they've driven in it. :thumbup:

I don't think they intended to come across as smoking something. These two tests were not performed at the same time, with the same car, in the same conditions so it would not be a correct conclusion to say that the data of one test proves anything about the other test. In order to arrive at that conclusion, TR would have needed to run the tests at the same time and the same vehicle for the express purposes of gathering that data. You'll notice that date, time, and condition details are missing from the report. So the reports are fine for looking at comparing the tires in each report against the other tires in the same report at the same time, but would not really be useful to compare across the two reports. I wouldn't say TR really intended for the data to be used as angrypenquin is presenting it so it's not their fault.
 

Deacon

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Michelin Pilot Sport AS4 sounds like a great option for those of us who deal with some cold but not much snow. But those idiots at GM and Michelin don’t know anything about tires compared to some dude on the Internet, so probably not.

 

CPB

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We run summer tires, then swap to winters if traveling north during icey months. All season's being mediocre at everything is nice for most folks.
 

angrypenguin

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I don't think they intended to come across as smoking something. These two tests were not performed at the same time, with the same car, in the same conditions so it would not be a correct conclusion to say that the data of one test proves anything about the other test. In order to arrive at that conclusion, TR would have needed to run the tests at the same time and the same vehicle for the express purposes of gathering that data. You'll notice that date, time, and condition details are missing from the report. So the reports are fine for looking at comparing the tires in each report against the other tires in the same report at the same time, but would not really be useful to compare across the two reports. I wouldn't say TR really intended for the data to be used as angrypenquin is presenting it so it's not their fault.
Tirerack has almost always performed testing on 3 series BMWs, and have always used ice rinks for ice testing and some place up north for snow testing. You're right the scenario isn't exactly the same between the two tests, however, IMHO, for all intents and purposes, the results does have value.

If you're testing how a tire performs in snow in -5'C (sorry I'm Canadian) versus -45'C then well that test is almost irrelevant due to the 30'C difference. However, I don't think, on a balance of probabilities, that TireRack would be so silly as to test like that.

I think it generally can simply be said that:

1) All season high performance tires perform much better than high performance summer tires in the winter, and do an alright job in the winter.
2) Dedicated snow tires perform much better than high performance winter tires at the expense of dry weather handling and longevity.
3) High performance snow tires are still better than high performance all season tires in the winter, and the main advantage is in ice traction.

These 3 statements above cannot be refuted in any way by the information presented, and by common sense. That's about all I drew from this. Whether or not I will avoid high performance winter tires this time around - I don't know. I've been an avid believer in a dedicated set of winter shoes/tires/rims so it'll be interesting if I abandon it this time around - that said, I drive a total of 2,000km at most in the winter, which is nothing.
 
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TheSkyIsFalling

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I tell me ppl tires are like your shoes.

I can use your basic “running shoe” and it will perform decent across the board. I could play soccer, basketball, golf, foot ball etc. however. My running shoe will never perform as good as a shoe designed for the activity. Like no one golfs seriously wears running shoes.
 

Tb12

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One thing to note here - performance winter tires are kind of the step between "studless" winter tires and a/s. They're not going to perform as well in deep snow or on ice as true winter tires, so the comparison to a/s tires makes a lot of sense. Comparing true winters to a/s... That's a different story.
 

jazzie366

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Before you pass any judgment, please note that I have ALWAYS been a huge fan of winter tires. I have always run a dedicated set of snow tires for my vehicles. In evaluating my winter tire choices, I wanted to look at some hard data, and colour me absolutely surprised.

Note. I am comparing "High performance All Seasons" with "Performance Winter" tires. Please note I am NOT comparing against studless snow/ice tires because, well, none of them fit my car, and given the weight of the car, I don't even want to imagine how quickly I'll wreck dedicated studless ice/snow tires (or "proper" snow tires).

Tirerack results: Performance winter tires: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplayWinter.jsp?ttid=181
Tirerack results: High performance all seasons: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplayWinter.jsp?ttid=221

The testing methodology is the same. The car used is the same. The only difference is with the tires.

Are you as shocked as I am? In every category except ice, the performance is near identical. I am absolutely blown away by these results.

Here where I live - they use heavy amounts of salt so the existence of ice is never present. I also don't drive much, or at all, in the winter. For the first time I'm contemplating about ditching snow tires altogether due to the performance of my high performance all seasons. Snow is something I face, and there is no real difference in performance.

Surprised? Thoughts? I have an open mind - I haven't decided, but looking at the pure data made me GASP!

--
For those thinking about "what about cornering/stability?" - I used the 'lap time' as a metric here.
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I also found this for "Grand Touring All Season Tires".


Which just suck in the winter. -I've always run GT tires in the past and thus have had a dedicated set of snow tires/rims, but now with high performance all seasons which as per TireRack do a pretty good job in the winter, I'm thinking of saving myself from the hassle.

Change my mind!
YYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTTTTT

Finally, a topic I specialize in: Tires!

So, I'm a full time mechanic and I specialize in finding tires that perform well on certain vehicles in bad weather. Why do I specialize in that you ask? Well, it's more of a safety cushion than anything. I want tires that stop on a dime in snow and in rain, even if it means having two different sets. With that being said, I have a lot to say:

1. Brand name means absolutely nothing with today's tire technology. Most of my favorite brands of tire are brands you've never heard of, and they're actually being adopted into original equipment on newer vehicle. For example, Cadillac now uses Vogue for their OEM tires and most of their new models ship with them equipped. They are an ultra high performance tire that is an amazing blend of wet and winter traction, as well as being SILENT while driving. The tire in particular is the Vogue Signature V Black, highly recommend this tire if you are going with an all season.

2. Pay attention to the UTQG of a tire (Uniform Tire Quality Grading). This is usually expressed as a number, followed by two (or 3) letters. First, you have the treadwear, which is expressed as a number, such as 500. A tire with a treadwear of 500 will wear 5x better than that of one with 100, and 1x less than a tire with a treadwear of 600. After that, you have the traction rating, expressed as either 1 or 2 letters, AA, A, B, or C. This rating is ONLY TESTED ON WET ASPHALT AND CONCRETE, NO SNOW SIMULATION WHATSOEVER. Do NOT consider this rating when purchasing a tire for winter conditions. Nearly every tire has a rating of A or AA, with the few exceptions, such as for specialty uses such as racing or extreme driving. And finally, you have the temperature rating. This tells you how fast a tire can go for extended periods of time without overheating. This is a single letter, A, B, or C. A tire with an A rating can go over 115MPH continuously. A tire with a B rating can go up to 110MPH continuously, and a tire with a C rating can go up to 100MPH continuously. However, you MUST follow the speed rating of the tire which may be lower than this.

3. All Season, All Weather, M+S, 3PMS, and other specialty terms and ratings:

  1. All Season: Doesn't mean what you think it does. You'd likely assume hearing this that it's okay to use in snow and ice, but won't do that well compared to a snow tire. Well, you'd be wrong. You CANNOT use an all season tire in snow and ice. Why? Because the stopping distance is almost always double or more than that of a snow tire in panic stops, and will almost always fishtail in corners at speed. So, why do they call it an all season if it can't handle the season? That's because they're referring to the seasons, and not the weather they contain. Basically, if you ask how you should use an all season tire in snow, they're likely to tell you to stay home if it's over an inch or two, do not run all season tires in any form of inclement weather.
  2. All Weather, my FAVORITE tire of all time. The exact same as an all season, but it will grip MUCH better in inclement weather. Take for example, the Milestar WeatherGuard AW365. This is my top pick for anyone looking for a tire they can truly run all year round with no problems without breaking the bank. They perform EXCELLENT in snow and ice and feature the 3PMS (3 Peak Mountain Snowflake) symbol, which in short means that the tire meets or exceeds the requirements for being considered a snow tire. Now, I know a lot of people are going to wonder how a tire that performs good in snow and ice doesn't wear like crazy. Well, that's got a simple answer. To grip well in snow and ice, a tire needs to do two things, it needs to stay soft down to -7 degrees, and have lots of micro-siping to create lots of little biting edges to grip onto ice and snow, which is the reason all snow tires look like they have lots of jagged lines running through the tread. All weather tires do this while also having a much more elastic rubber compound. This means instead of being super soft and mushy for extreme grip, they are more elastic so they do not wear as easily.
  3. M+S and 3PMS ratings are very different and should be respected as such. A tire that has M+S (Mud and Snow) markings is a generalized rating that can be put on at the manufacturers discretion. In short, the manufacturer is telling you, "It can handle some bad weather.", with no real indication as to how bad, this should be mostly ignored when choosing a tire as nearly all of them on the market have this rating. However, the 3PMS rating is something you want to find on either a snow tire, or an all weather tire. This specifically means it can handle harsh weather and maintain it's grip as it meets the requirements to be considered a snow tire.
  4. Load Index/Ply Ratings should be checked when you are purchasing tires for your vehicle. You can see in your driver's door, where the tire pressure sticker is, how much weight the tires are meant to carry, plus what size they should be. For example, here's an Audi door sticker containing all the different sizes of tire your car was equipped with from the factory, depending on options. It tells you the speed rating (a letter at the end), and just before the letter, there is a number. This is the load index. This is the weight the tire is rated to handle, you should never go under this, however going over this rating is always recommended. The ply rating on a tire is expressed as a letter which tells you how many plies the tire consists of. A tire with an XL rating as one extra ply in the sidewall for extra weight capacity. A tire with a C ply rating has 6 total plies, which include more in the tread and more in the sidewall as well.
    f0b98c41851fbdc8412040e6ac1ce96b.jpg
  5. And finally, summer and winter tires! This one is quick, I promise. Winter tires that have a directional rotation will almost always do better in inclement weather, adding studs also helps. Be advised though, if you start to run a winter tire when the weather gets warmer out, you can lose nearly half of the tread in just 3 months, this is a very bad idea. As for summer tires, these usually go one of two ways, they are either just regular ol' all season tires, or you can get ones that are specifically aimed at water and dry weather only. Summer tires that have a lower treadwear typically grip better, unless they are ultra low cost, such as the Ohtsu FP7000 (which is re-branded to multiple different names, such as the Doral SDL-A, exact same tire that is just copied). Said tires will do very poorly in colder weather as they have a harder rubber compound that doesn't grip well when cold. In my opinion, I would run Firestone Firehawk Indy 500 in the summer, and Hemisphere HW505 or HW501 in the winter. I have used all 3 of the aformentioned tires, they all do amazingly in their respective seasons and cost less than 400 per set, and the Hemisphere's cost less than 300 per set depending on who sells them.





That's all folks. If you have any other tire specific questions, or vehicle specific tire choices, let me know.

Also, tire rack is garbage, use SimpleTire, Tires-Easy, or TireBuyer, almost always have cheaper tires.
 

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