High performance AS tires vs Performance Winter tires

angrypenguin

Advanced User
Lifetime Premium Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Messages
3,260
Reaction score
2,948
Before you pass any judgment, please note that I have ALWAYS been a huge fan of winter tires. I have always run a dedicated set of snow tires for my vehicles. In evaluating my winter tire choices, I wanted to look at some hard data, and colour me absolutely surprised.

Note. I am comparing "High performance All Seasons" with "Performance Winter" tires. Please note I am NOT comparing against studless snow/ice tires because, well, none of them fit my car, and given the weight of the car, I don't even want to imagine how quickly I'll wreck dedicated studless ice/snow tires (or "proper" snow tires).

Tirerack results: Performance winter tires: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplayWinter.jsp?ttid=181
Tirerack results: High performance all seasons: https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplayWinter.jsp?ttid=221

The testing methodology is the same. The car used is the same. The only difference is with the tires.

Are you as shocked as I am? In every category except ice, the performance is near identical. I am absolutely blown away by these results.

Here where I live - they use heavy amounts of salt so the existence of ice is never present. I also don't drive much, or at all, in the winter. For the first time I'm contemplating about ditching snow tires altogether due to the performance of my high performance all seasons. Snow is something I face, and there is no real difference in performance.

Surprised? Thoughts? I have an open mind - I haven't decided, but looking at the pure data made me GASP!

--
For those thinking about "what about cornering/stability?" - I used the 'lap time' as a metric here.
Post automatically merged:
I also found this for "Grand Touring All Season Tires".


Which just suck in the winter. -I've always run GT tires in the past and thus have had a dedicated set of snow tires/rims, but now with high performance all seasons which as per TireRack do a pretty good job in the winter, I'm thinking of saving myself from the hassle.

Change my mind!
 
Last edited:

alloy00

vMax
Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
2,645
Reaction score
2,731
Three general thoughts.
1) I'm not surprised and not judging. Tire technology - both the construction of the entire tire and compounds in contact with the road - have evolved more than layfolk can comprehend over the last ~35 years.
2) As you said, the braking distance difference on ice is where the winters differentiate themselves.
3) I would run the all season high performance without hesitation in virtually any location year-round. Flame me, not AP!
 

SVG

PSL +5
Intermediate User
Lifetime Premium Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2017
Messages
454
Reaction score
648
Location
CA/MT
Ap, I run Hakkepeliitta R3's on my Audi in the winter and it's almost unfair. I've made round trip drives to Spokane in bad conditions and have never been passed. The car is just that stable.

I know you said no dedicated snows but thought I'd throw it out there.
 

angrypenguin

Advanced User
Lifetime Premium Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Messages
3,260
Reaction score
2,948
Ap, I run Hakkepeliitta R3's on my Audi in the winter and it's almost unfair. I've made round trip drives to Spokane in bad conditions and have never been passed. The car is just that stable.

I know you said no dedicated snows but thought I'd throw it out there.
I have run the Hakka Rs in the past and I agree with you they are a BEAST in the winter. However, never again. 2 reasons.

1) They were damn near impossible to balance
2) On dry payment, it felt like I was driving DRUNK. (tread squirm is huge on Nokian tires)

My present car is incredibly heavy and already chewing through the shoulder regions of the high performance tire I'm running (alignment has been checked and is bang on). The thought of dedicated snow tires on my car = instant KO.
Post automatically merged:
Three general thoughts.
1) I'm not surprised and not judging. Tire technology - both the construction of the entire tire and compounds in contact with the road - have evolved more than layfolk can comprehend over the last ~35 years.
Just building on your comment here:

-I'm giving up winter performance (dedicated snow tires) by going to a high performance winter tire.
-I'm giving up treadwear longevity (grand touring all season) by going to a high performance all season tire (has softer compound)

Either way, with both tires I'm giving up something and meeting "in the middle". I'm trying to justify $3300 which is the cost of a dedicated set of performance snow tires+rims. I'm struggling right now. Happy to spend it, don't get me wrong, but only if I can eek out a gain worth it. Just trying to see if I can...
 
Last edited:

G37X Jockey

Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
1,287
Reaction score
1,110
Location
Behind my Steering Wheel
I run Michelin Sport SP4's in summer, and then switch to Michelin performance winters. I used to run all seasons which are mostly adequate, but with any measurable amount of snow accumulation I've found winters are far better at maintaining grip. It really depends on what winter is like where you live.
 

DocTJ

Learning to Fly
Beginner User
Joined
Nov 12, 2017
Messages
160
Reaction score
199
Location
ATL
S8 here: Summers in summer (wanting SP4 next), all season DWS06 in winter due to the super varying temps where I live.
All depends on driving style and speed while traveling. I need stability while driving a heavy car (like yours), but also comfort and agility. Obviously if its snowing or theres ice or heavy rain, not gonna do that. But if its 20 degrees out and clear, yes, i'm driving normally.
 

Deacon

TXCTG
Advanced User
Lifetime Premium Member
Joined
Nov 13, 2016
Messages
10,203
Reaction score
12,534
Location
Hill Country, TX
That article is a few years old, so they didn’t have the current Michelin Pilot Sport AS3+ to put in the mix. That would be my recommendation to people who need a year-round tire and aren’t in extreme conditions (like Finland winters or in the Rockies).

Are you as shocked as I am? In every category except ice, the performance is near identical. I am absolutely blown away by these results.
I’m not shocked. Some self-appointed experts like to claim that all-season tires are worthless below 40F, despite the fact that that’s exactly what AS tires were created for in the first place, they’re confusing AS with summer-only tires, and that today’s tires differ dramatically from what was available in 1983 or whenever it was someone planted that idea in their head.
 

TheSkyIsFalling

Learning to Fly
Beginner User
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
1,263
Reaction score
1,656
I didn’t read the article

But i know a lot about tires. Believe me I have seen way too many over the years. Ppl ask me all the time. What do u think about these a/s tires in winter?

If they have a brand new a/s tire. I tell them the thread is deep enough to have solid traction in snow. But the compound will be harder it perform good on ice

It’s the same thing I tell ppl when it comes to a dedicated snow tire from a reputable maker vs a cheap chinese maker

With that being said as the tread wears down. The advantage shifts to the dedicated snow tire.
 
Last edited:

meismyname

Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2016
Messages
1,543
Reaction score
1,520
Location
Washington State
I run DWS06 in the winter and summers in the summer. This last winter Washington got a ton of snow, which is unusual. With DWS06, AWD, and manual, I really had no problems. There was one day that I felt like I was the only car on the road, and everyone else was in trucks, jeeps, or SUVs. I had plenty of fun giving it throttle around corners where it was safe to learn how the car handles sliding, but for the most part I had to be trying to lose it for it to slide.

Both my current car and my previous one had winter tires on them when I bought them, and the grip for dry and wet was absolutely terrible. I remember going through a cloverleaf onramp, starting to understeer, lifting a little, then oversteering, and just being pissed at the tires. Took my DWS06 from my old car and sold it with the snow tires from my new car on it.

I figured especially with as little snow as we get here, it I'd rather have good handling year round than sadness half the year.
 

angrypenguin

Advanced User
Lifetime Premium Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Messages
3,260
Reaction score
2,948
I'm shocked at the performance of the DWS06 tires based on the thread here and elsewhere in the winter. For an all season tire that tire does wonders. That said, like everything you can't outrun the triple triangle constraint.

The tread compound is softer and wears faster than other AS tires.

I think that's why performance all season tires do alright in the snow. It's because it's a softer compound to begin with when compared to grand touring all season tires which, for the last set I had, was akin to a drunk 2 year old trying to walk on ice (in the snow). It was ridiculous. You could look at the car and it would slide 87 feet.
 

EightyFiveHundred

-/-\-
Advanced User
Lifetime Premium Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
1,350
Reaction score
2,413
Location
Surf City, USA
I run the A/S 3+ on my A3 Quattro. I did some testing for Michelin on the original release of the A/S 3. The Conti DWS has really stepped up their game, with their last update too.

From a DRY adhesion standpoint, the current generation of Ultra high performance AS tires are outperforming the sub-200 treadwear rating tires from two generations ago, like the PS2.

For real snow/ice the LandCruiser fits the bill. Front lockers still can’t grab on a sheet of ice. Running a more aggressive snow tire now.


616604F9-2757-4D84-991D-E9227F1ABE02.jpeg
 

STS-134

Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2014
Messages
9,918
Reaction score
8,405
Location
Saratoga, CA
Are you as shocked as I am? In every category except ice, the performance is near identical. I am absolutely blown away by these results.

Here where I live - they use heavy amounts of salt so the existence of ice is never present. I also don't drive much, or at all, in the winter. For the first time I'm contemplating about ditching snow tires altogether due to the performance of my high performance all seasons. Snow is something I face, and there is no real difference in performance.
How about high performance all seasons for snow, and then for the rare ice you might encounter (like after an episode of freezing rain), just carry tire chains? Most likely, you won't ever have to use them (especially if you have AWD) but if you're really facing ice and hills at the same time, you have something to fall back on. And it beats having to constantly switch tires, storing a second set, having to worry about how old the rubber is getting on your second set, etc.
 

Freebird

Poking the bears.
Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2011
Messages
4,359
Reaction score
6,689
Three general thoughts.
1) I'm not surprised and not judging. Tire technology - both the construction of the entire tire and compounds in contact with the road - have evolved more than layfolk can comprehend over the last ~35 years.
2) As you said, the braking distance difference on ice is where the winters differentiate themselves.
3) I would run the all season high performance without hesitation in virtually any location year-round. Flame me, not AP!
Nailed it. This is so true.
 

angrypenguin

Advanced User
Lifetime Premium Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Messages
3,260
Reaction score
2,948
How about high performance all seasons for snow, and then for the rare ice you might encounter (like after an episode of freezing rain), just carry tire chains? Most likely, you won't ever have to use them (especially if you have AWD) but if you're really facing ice and hills at the same time, you have something to fall back on. And it beats having to constantly switch tires, storing a second set, having to worry about how old the rubber is getting on your second set, etc.
Yeah so funny story. My last car after I sold it my dedicated snow tires had 9/32" tread left. That's after close to 10 years of ownership....I don't mind storage/changing them over, but when I see snow outside I park my ass indoors which completely negates the point of 'real' snow tires. If I had to commute to work I'd get winters, but I think at this point I'll just chance it and see how this performs in the snow!

I have budgeted snows+rims but the results are pretty darn conclusive. That said, it is worth mentioning that fresh snow traction and packed snow traction are two different things. The latter is closer to ice, so maybe that's the difference the test results aren't really showing.
 

Tb12

PSL +5
Intermediate User
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Messages
342
Reaction score
527
Location
MA
I have Blizzak LM-32s on 17" rims for winter. I am definitely disappointed in their snow+ice grip once they're even halfway through their life. Dry grip is pretty great for a winter tire, but I do wonder if some a/s3+ would be better overall. They weren't exactly cheap, either.
 

bkayrac

Advanced User
Lifetime Premium Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
3,007
Reaction score
2,432
lived in snow my entire life. Haven't seen an all season perform like winter tires ever. I don't know what tire rack is smoking, it's just not reality.
 

Tb12

PSL +5
Intermediate User
Joined
Aug 7, 2018
Messages
342
Reaction score
527
Location
MA
Here's the real kicker though - snow performance is almost identical, but ice performance... Holy cow. Twice the stopping distance, even with the latest crop of tires.

Screenshot_20190831-212527.png

Screenshot_20190831-212543.png
 

angrypenguin

Advanced User
Lifetime Premium Member
Joined
Aug 19, 2017
Messages
3,260
Reaction score
2,948
Here's the real kicker though - snow performance is almost identical, but ice performance... Holy cow. Twice the stopping distance, even with the latest crop of tires.

View attachment 129326
View attachment 129327
Yes, I have brought this up since my original post. Ice is not an issue where I live in Canada. The government salts for fun and salts everywhere due to liability concerns. The main issue I face is snow, or bare pavement.
 

oktavf

Advanced User
Lifetime Premium Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Messages
903
Reaction score
975
Location
NW GA
Go drive a light FWD car without a LSD and tell me they are "close" together in the snow/ice... :coffee2:
 

TheSkyIsFalling

Learning to Fly
Beginner User
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
1,263
Reaction score
1,656
Yes, I have brought this up since my original post. Ice is not an issue where I live in Canada. The government salts for fun and salts everywhere due to liability concerns. The main issue I face is snow, or bare pavement.

I have question for u. Being that u lived in a place where salt use has been used to what seems like forever. How is the infrastructure with the salt use over there

Here edmonton. They will continue using cacl and nacl. They say they are driven by data which says accidents are down. Blah blah blah. Off course any one can deduce that without a study because it’s closer or at pavement with salt use

The kicker is. I read the study the city had done. The report flat out says they have no worthy in data for the effects of salt use on the infrastructure because more time is needed.

However the city fails to me mention that

I used to be auto tech. And when I worked on vehicles from out east. I couldnt believe the amount of rust everywhere on a vehicle and wondered how techs can work on this stuff daily. Like 8mm 10mm 12mm heads would be so easy to snap off. Techs must got really good drilling out. Broken fasteners.
 
Last edited:

Discord Server

Latest threads

Forum statistics

Threads
78,277
Messages
1,192,028
Members
19,965
Latest member
prophet58
Top