Heywood's Lockout Zone/Range Testing July 22 2019 (1 Viewer)

BlueV1

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Radius is the distance from the center point to the edge.

Diameter is the distance across the centre point from one outside edge side to another. Like a circle. A straight point from one side to the other across the center axis.

The distance all around the circle is the circumference
We are agreeing; you said it better. :)
 

Heywood

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I should clarify it.
The R3 has a radius of .035 MHz from the lockout frequency. .035 below and .035 above.

The spread, or diameter is 70 MHz.

The purpose of the test was to see, while 2 K band frequencies were introduced, such as a Leo setting up a k band trap and shooting through a known k band false area, how do they handle it.

None of them did as I would prefer, but as they sit now, I’d rather have 1000 to 1500 feet of warning than no warning at all.
 

BlueV1

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Sorry for the late reply. :)

Please understand that I know the difference between radius, diameter, and circumference.
Typically when we use radius as it pertains to lockouts, we are talking about a distance of feet or meters.
Attaching an example.
The point of defining this as radius is that lockouts affect a pre-defined distance in all directions from the lockout location.
In my attached example, 250m from East or West has the same effect as North and South.

While I have seen the concept of "numerical radius" used to define a situation such a 5± 3 to indicate 2 to 8 on a number line, that is a one-dimensional concept as there is nothing above or below (adjacent) that 5 on the number line, only lower or higher on that line;
we typically don't use radius as a word to describe the frequency range of a lockout. We are already using radius to describe a circular area for said lockout.

I was suggesting that a better word could be used to define 24.138± 35 MHz to avoid confusion for those that know radius as a distance measurement. :)
 

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Heywood

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We’re all pretty much talking about the same thing. I don’t think we have to go down this rabbit hole any further lol.

This test was a distance test plain and simple.

I’m not sure where the R3 600 meter thing came from, but I do have another way to test that as well.

Anyone can do it. Put a radar gun between your legs while sitting behind the wheel and pull the trigger. Create you own lockout.

You put it between your legs so you don’t overdrive the detector.

Drive a block away, and while holding the trigger down, slowly drive towards your created lockout. Once the GPS mutes the gun, measure back to your created lockout location. That’ll give you an idea of how big it is by GPS.

That should give you an idea of how big the lockout range should be on the non enforcement side.

Unfortunately for the Uniden’s, it seems that K band stays muted no matter the distance as long as the frequencies are both in that .035 MHz window.

I do have a Falcon HR that shoots 24.099. I’m wondering if the Uniden’s will react differently if the 2 frequencies are not in the .035???

I might try that.
 

DC Fluid

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We’re all pretty much talking about the same thing. I don’t think we have to go down this rabbit hole any further lol.

This test was a distance test plain and simple.

I’m not sure where the R3 600 meter thing came from, but I do have another way to test that as well.

Anyone can do it. Put a radar gun between your legs while sitting behind the wheel and pull the trigger. Create you own lockout.

You put it between your legs so you don’t overdrive the detector.

Drive a block away, and while holding the trigger down, slowly drive towards your created lockout. Once the GPS mutes the gun, measure back to your created lockout location. That’ll give you an idea of how big it is by GPS.

That should give you an idea of how big the lockout range should be on the non enforcement side.

Unfortunately for the Uniden’s, it seems that K band stays muted no matter the distance as long as the frequencies are both in that .035 MHz window.

I do have a Falcon HR that shoots 24.099. I’m wondering if the Uniden’s will react differently if the 2 frequencies are not in the .035???

I might try that.
I have to take issue with the lockout radius Uniden applies as to how it works on the R7.
Because of front and rear antennas, the area of alerting to the false is twice as large as a front only detector. (generalizing)
So the R7 doesn't seem to grab onto the lockout as it transitions front to rear antenna, and will require additional lockout after you pass source.
Then it seems to be repeated for the opposite direction of travel.
So I end up using 4 lockout memory locations to quiet one door opener.
Then magnify this problem when the same building has 2 or 3 door openers all blasting into the same area.
I end up locking those out too.
So if your testing shows K band locking out and not alerting to a new K band threat, I believe you.
But my experience has been it is very hard and frustrating to lock out false sources with minimal memory lockouts.
Any thoughts?
 

Heywood

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I have to take issue with the lockout radius Uniden applies as to how it works on the R7.
Because of front and rear antennas, the area of alerting to the false is twice as large as a front only detector. (generalizing)
So the R7 doesn't seem to grab onto the lockout as it transitions front to rear antenna, and will require additional lockout after you pass source.
Then it seems to be repeated for the opposite direction of travel.
So I end up using 4 lockout memory locations to quiet one door opener.
Then magnify this problem when the same building has 2 or 3 door openers all blasting into the same area.
I end up locking those out too.
So if your testing shows K band locking out and not alerting to a new K band threat, I believe you.
But my experience has been it is very hard and frustrating to lock out false sources with minimal memory lockouts.
Any thoughts?
You have to remember, the lockout on the detectors were all cleared and the speed sign was locked out BEFORE the Bushnell was activated 2600’ from the lockout.

I did see the Bushnell with the R7 when traveling in the opposite direction. The R7 did alert as normal. I can post that video.

As for the R7 needing multiple lockout spots? I can see that. If you have 3 door openers in close proximity, I can see each having to be locked out individually. Each probably have their own Frequency. The R7 can see each of them, but when you put it in mute memory, it doesn’t know which one you want, so it picks the strongest and leaves the others. The caveat would be that the 3 frequencies are not in that .035 MHz either above or below the primary lockout target.

As for the front and rear antennas. That shouldn’t make too much of a difference if you think about it. GPS marks the point of the strongest signal strength and also remembers the frequency.

There are some variables that can come into play, and it’s on all GPS detectors and lockouts. It’s not specific to one manufacture.
Weather has a factor. Rain, snow, humidity, can cause the range to increase or decrease.

Hardwired door openers are more stable. Solar powered speed signs and road maintanance signs are notoriously all over the map. That included frequency.

That speed sign I used in this test is all over the map. I’ve seen it up at 24.179 and as low as 24.120. I can go there today and I can almost guarantee with 99% certainly that it’s not going to be 24.138 today. Lol.
 

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I feel that the radius of the lock out needs increasing on the R7 in comparison to the R3.
I pick up a much larger area, as I pass the source(doors) and it moves to the rear antenna it either moves out of the lockout radius and alerts, or briefly loses signal as it transitions front to rear antenna (sometimes frequency changes) and then continues to alert on rear for a good distance.
I have tried various lockout methods and end up mass locking a strong signal (like 4 lockouts) to make it quiet.
Not an issue to make me abandon an R7 but it is more user intensive to make quiet.
R3 was a bit easier in this regard.
What I am misunderstanding from your test, please clarify,
1) If an R7 is locked out at a K Band source like a door, and a new K band threat appears in that area but at at frequency say 0.050 different, does the R7 alert at all? Sound and/or visual.

I understand the +/- frequency if too close to the lockout frequency it goes silent, visual only.
 

Heywood

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That’s something I can try with the Falcon HR or even the Bushnell as long as the frequency is further outside the .035.

I’d prefer the Bushnell as it’s a way more powerful gun on power output than the Falcon.

As for the R7 and R3’s. The R7’s are a few db’s more sensitive than the R3’s. That’s confirmed by BDR and proven in testing by various RDF testers.

The off axis abilities are way better on the R7’s than the R3. You can easily see that in the videos between the R3 and R7 in my test.

Your not misunderstanding anything. When the frequency is outside the .035 window, it could alert the 2nd signal, but that’s not what I was testing for this time. Even if I did, would it help? It could in helping what the detector does, and I’d be interested in testing that angle.

Right now as it stands, with the detectors I used in the test, the DFR9 was the only Uniden that did well. Even then, when it was in City mode, of the 3 runs, only the first one reacted like all 3 runs in Highway mode. Not reliable.

Why the R7 needs multiple lockouts at certain locations? I have no idea as I’m not there to see the frequency and it’s uncontrolled. It’s not the only detector that has this issue either. I’ve had to do multiple lockouts at the same location with the others as well at times. It’s not just a Uniden thing.

I absolutely agree with everyone that says that there should be a bogey alert in K band like Ka band.

Even then, it’s Attowave’s call at the request of the PM.

For the longest time, we had trouble on the R3 convincing Tom at BDR that MRCD alerts should have priority over Ka and K band alerts. It wasn’t always like that when MRCD was first being introduced on the R3’s in beta testing.
 

Deacon

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Wow. I wonder if mike V knew all this way way back.
He’s been preaching that for many years. He’s right to a point. With lockouts as commonly implemented there are substantial risks. With properly sophisticated lockouts, like in V1Driver or even JBV1, the risk is almost nil.
 

Heywood

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I have to agree that the V1 setup might be the best so far, but I don’t want this to turn into Valentine cheer session.

I’d rather keep this confined to the detectors I tested please.
 

Nanook

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Lucky for me, K band isn’t used for enforcement in Edmonton. It is however used elsewhere.
K band is not used?...This is good to know but if so what radar band is used then ?..I can turn down the K band sensitivity ?
 

TheSkyIsFalling

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From real world observations and experiences. This is extremely concerning with solar powered speed signs.

I have found at times when there is minimal traffic or when the unit is hotter. It’s k band radar gets detected further out on the pro M than it’s original lockout radius. So it’s beeps before getting muted. One could easily mistaken that for a legit higher power police k band signal in a locked out area and simply ignore the initial k band alert thinking it’s from the k band speed sign.
Wow. Not good
 

DC Fluid

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Though in practice, how many of us have needed a save in a locked out area that the LEO has laid a trap.
I can count maybe 2 or 3 times in 30 + years....
I think they have more on their minds than figuring out a way to beat a RD user who is using lockouts.
Setting up MRCD vans/boxes by a city hired contractor right beside a radar speed sign? I suspect that will be common practice.
Prediction: Coming to school, construction and other locations near you!
 

Heywood

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K band is not used?...This is good to know but if so what radar band is used then ?..I can turn down the K band sensitivity ?
No K band in the city, but it is used by the Alberta sheriffs and very little by the RCMP.

The Alberta sheriffs will and do run Raptors along with normal K band. You’ll see them heavily patrol the Henday. Especially the east leg.

Though in practice, how many of us have needed a save in a locked out area that the LEO has laid a trap.
I can count maybe 2 or 3 times in 30 + years....
I think they have more on their minds than figuring out a way to beat a RD user who is using lockouts.
Setting up MRCD vans/boxes by a city hired contractor right beside a radar speed sign? I suspect that will be common practice.
Prediction: Coming to school, construction and other locations near you!
A lot more than you think. In Ft. Saskatchewan, it’s a common practice around all the refineries there. They’ll set up a portable speed sign and shoot through the K band speed sign a 1/2 mile up from it.

Baseline road from Sherwood Park to Edmonton heading westbound. The Alberta sheriffs park on the west side of the railway overpass and nail you after you crested the top. The rail yard emits K band from the rail controls. Also the Esso refinery has a k band speed sign that emits 24/7 by the main gate.
This trap is active and manned at least once a week. It’ll be K band or Lidar.

I also have a video where the Alberta sheriffs are shooting K band through the k band false area beside the Suncor (Petro-Can) refinery. It K band false’s from all the “Fire eyes” that the refinery uses for spotting fires in their high lines.
Here’s the video



So maybe where you are you might not see it, but it’s much more common and a weekly occurrence where I am.
 

DC Fluid

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@Heywood
You need to move.
Unless you're getting paid to sniff all that dirty s**t.
My city RCMP uses no K band that I have found. All Ka and laser.
K band in RCMP in the Caribou region, plus all the other stuff.
But really we must have it good here.
Enforcement has not been at a fanatical level as in Edmonton and other NA cities.
I wonder what BC accident statistics are compared to Alberta and see if the high level of enforcement makes a difference in lives and injury.
 

KrazyK

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A huge thanks @Heywood , and what a thorough effort on this subject! Your time is appreciated.
I didn't realize the lockout of a K band source had, more or less, the same affect with all the detectors you tested. You'll remember form our conversations that I did have concern with the Pro M in this department.
Just today I ran an errand to the city core down 50th street, across Capilano, and then the 111 St. debacle. On 50th he was parked right under that solar sign. Then another just west of the Royal Alex hospital on 111. Finally another at 109 St., northbound, again right under the "your speed is" sign.
On the way back I found the guy at 50St had moved about 100 meters further north and was standing outside his truck having a smoke, lol.

A bit of a slow day I guess.........only 3 units.
 

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