Motorcycle TPX Lidar (2019) kill options

studio1930

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Some have asked about the kill options for the new 2019 Adaptiv TPX jammers, so I thought I would make a quick post and share my findings.

The TPX system has two settings for the jammer timer:
  • Auto-kill in 3 seconds
  • Jam while signal is present (testing mode)
The system was designed with motorcyclists in mind which means that the company does not intend on you interacting with the device (controller) when you get shot since you need to focus on controlling your motorcycle and probably need both hands to do so. This means that you must be able to slow down to near the PSL within less than 3 seconds. Since motorcycles can slow down quickly, they often travel at well above the PSL (+30 to > +100) which makes it unlikely that they can slow to near the PSL in less than 3 seconds. Also note that when the jammer shuts down after 3 seconds, it powers off the unit and will not power on until the rider manually holds the power button on the controller for ~5 seconds.

Options:
  • The rider can press the mute button on the controller to silence the alert and kill the light, but jamming will continue for the set time (3 seconds or forever depending on the selection).
  • The rider can press the mode button (power button) on the controller once (even while being shot with lidar) to switch from the unlimited mode to the 3-second mode which will then start a 3-second timer and then auto power off the system.
    • The problem with this method is that the rider must be able to remove their hand to change modes and the system will not stop jamming until it switches modes (one or two seconds) and then finishes a new 3-second timer.
  • Leave the system in auto-kill in 3 seconds and hope that enough speed has been reduced once a lock is acquired.
  • Leave the system in testing mode and JTG/JFG and hope that the officer does not question their inability to get a lock (and possibly put the CM community at risk).

Suggestions:
  • Allow the rider the option of selecting a more appropriate timeout such as 3 to 10 seconds.
  • Allow the rider the ability to kill the jammer with the controller button once it is safe to remove their hand from the steering.
  • Program the system to stop jamming after the timeout, but go back into defense mode after a set time (1 min?) so the rider doesn't have to remember to power the system on.
Adaptiv has done an excellent job building a quality system that addresses all of the modern guns effectively while keeping costs low. With that in mind, it would be nice to see a few critical features addeded to the firmware to allow riders a safe option of jamming for more than 3 seconds without performing a dangerous JTG/JFG, and then power back up after a period of silence so the rider does not have to remember to do so.

Controller:
125480


-Studio1930
 
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IPA

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Killing jammers is not optional; it must be done. 3 seconds is ideal, 4 seconds tolerable for newbies. You can wire a kill switch to turn the entire system off.

I suppose if you’re traveling at +100 it doesn’t even matter if you have jammers.
 
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studio1930

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Killing jammers is not optional; it must be done. 3 seconds is ideal, 4 seconds tolerable for newbies. You can wire a kill switch to turn the entire system off.
Thanks for your comment, IPA. While the CM community agrees with you that killing the jammer is preferred, the time to kill is relative to the speed over the PSL and the type of vehicle. Motorcycle are different than cars. It is difficult to register the speed on some motorcycles, especially in situations that cause the target to move around (corners, bumpy road, lane changes...). Officers targeting a bike will probably not question their inability to lock the speed of a motorcycle several seconds longer than it would take to lock a car. Having a kill time longer than what the CM community expects from an experienced car driver seems reasonable and might be necessary when traveling well above the PSL. It would not be unreasonable to have a kill time of 5 or 6 seconds for a motorcycle as it can easily take that long to acquire their speed without jammers (feel free to test this against different types of bikes).

Some may argue that a motorcycle traveling well above the PSL (meaning that a longer time to kill will not help) will cause the officer to pull them over just from observing their excessive speed, but this is not true in all cases. The human brain determines speed visually by referencing the distance between two objects over time, but the single headlight and narrow frame of a motorcycle make it very difficult to see the distance changes. This is why there are so many accidents where cars turn left in front of a motorcycle because the car driver thought the bike was traveling near the PSL and based on the distance to the bike they thought they had enough time when in fact the bike was traveling +50 (for example). Highway riding at +50 to +100 is a perfect example of where an officer may not be able to visually determine the speed of the motorcycle and having more than 3 seconds may be necessary.

-Studio1930
 

DC Fluid

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Or for instance in British Columbia Canada jammers are perfectly legal and a 3 second shut off is unnecessary.
I'm so into getting this system, but not being able to change it to 5 seconds shut off is a big negative.
I'm not talking about way over PSL problem, it's my non-ABS weak braking touring cruiser that needs more reaction time for safe speed reduction.
Plus the more strict limits of the police in my area pulling you over for anything more over than 6 mph over PSL.
Please add a feature to adjust shut off, with an automatic restart a minute or 2 later.
The OP has extremely valid points and I will wait to see this addressed before purchasing.
 

Heywood

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Nice description @studio1930.

I guess for sport bikes I can sympathize with wanting some sort of adjustment.

The touring bikes might be better at 3 or 4 seconds. Mine has a fairing on it, so it might be easier to get a lock on it than a naked, or near naked, sport bike.

Then again most baggers are not clipping 50 to100 mph over the PSL.
 
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venom690

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I guess a solution would be to wire a kill switch that cuts the power off to the handle bar, so you reduce speed and then flip the switch, I don't know if I can fit yet another switch on my handle bars though lol..

but yeah , fimware update should allow to cut off jammers with a single press of the power button while under attack, and the whole "they do not want people messing around with the controler while riding" yet you have to manually turn it back on while riding unless you pull over I guess..

The dilema here is that you can chose to leave the auto JTK and risk getting a huge ticket by not noticing the light as soon as it goes off(I:E: you are looking over your shoulder to switch lanes) or leave it JTG and dont get a ticket but may piss the officer off.. I mean I am all for not hurting the community but I also do not want to get a speeding ticket because i was a second too late at getting to PSL.

thank you for checking this.
 

studio1930

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I guess a solution would be to wire a kill switch that cuts the power off to the handle bar, so you reduce speed and then flip the switch, I don't know if I can fit yet another switch on my handle bars though lol..

but yeah , fimware update should allow to cut off jammers with a single press of the power button while under attack, and the whole "they do not want people messing around with the controler while riding" yet you have to manually turn it back on while riding unless you pull over I guess..

The dilema here is that you can chose to leave the auto JTK and risk getting a huge ticket by not noticing the light as soon as it goes off(I:E: you are looking over your shoulder to switch lanes) or leave it JTG and dont get a ticket but may piss the officer off.. I mean I am all for not hurting the community but I also do not want to get a speeding ticket because i was a second too late at getting to PSL.

thank you for checking this.

I agree that firmware is the best solution, but a power switch might also work. I too have little room left to mount more things. I didn't plan on mounting the controller in a visible area until I found out that I would need it to power the unit back on and to see if the unit is powered on and working. Since I have it mounted on the bars (horizontally), I might as well be able to use the buttons to kill the jammers. Hopefully, Adaptiv puts some time/money into the product but we will have to wait and see.

-Studio1930
 

DC Fluid

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Unnecessary? Why?
JTK ASAP is important EVERYWHERE!
3 second shut of is unnecessary here. No laws are being broken.
5 seconds would be my preferred option with the vehicle I have.
So why not have an update allowing user to program shut off anywhere 1-6 seconds for example.
With my loud and sluggish 1000 lb setup I could use 2 more seconds even though my speeds are closer to the PSL. One setting might not work for everyone.
 

IPA

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The goal of JTK is to eliminate suspicion by police. They do not suspect that an ordinary person has jammers, and you are to operate your equipment in such a manner to act like any other driver on the road. They will not think you have jammers or be suspicious if they get a reading near PSL in an ordinary amount of time. They will be none the wiser that they got jammed or that you were speeding. That is the ideal scenario.

Rear hits at night are difficult, but as stated elsewhere in the forum, “I saw you in my rearview mirror” is an acceptable statement.

The point is to appear that you are using no countermeasures at all. If you do not kill in less than four seconds, you are operating your equipment incorrectly. I assure you that a speed greater than being able to 3s JTK will arouse their attention regardless of how they’re measuring speed. Use common sense here to not only save your own ass but the community’s as well.

Sorry for appearing harsh, but this is a significant security concern. Jammer legality plays no part in JTK speed. It should be done regardless.
 

studio1930

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I edited the original post to make it more clear that you can press the power button to switch from unlimited to 3 seconds while actively being shot with lidar. This means that you would spend a few seconds getting down to speed, hit the button to switch modes, the mode will take a few seconds to change and will then power off after 3 seconds allowing the shooter to get a speed reading.

Estimate:
  • 3+ seconds to get the speed down
  • 1 to 2 seconds to press the button (motorcycle gloves, remember)
  • 1 to 1.5 seconds for the system to switch modes
  • 3 seconds to auto-kill
This is a total of ~8 to 10 seconds and a lot of work. The time might be extended if you are are a corner, heavy traffic, road debris (sand, gravel, dirt, oil, couch), communicating with another rider, press the wrong button on the controller, or any other thing that is unique to a motorcycle and makes it difficult to use your hands.

I may test this and report back how fast my shooter can get a reading under controlled settings.

-Studio1930
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The goal of JTK is to eliminate suspicion by police. Jammer legality plays no part in JTK speed. It should be done regardless.
^^^^ This.
 

Heywood

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Sorry @DC Fluid. I really have to agree with the other posters on the importance of being able to kill the jammers asap.

Even though they’re not technically illegal in BC, you’d like to keep it that way for yourself and everyone else.

There is a member here, who years ago did exactly what your suggesting. Unfortunately he was also video taping the fun of JTG on some Texas Leo’s.

The Leo’s did a little investigating and we’re able to get a law passed that made Lidar Jammers illegal in the state of Texas.

That’s the other reason we were so ticked off at Escort when they introduced their jammers without a auto kill option. It’s irresponsible.

Even though the use of jammers is legal, if more people do not use them discreetly, they will be band.
 

studio1930

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Sorry @DC Fluid. I really have to agree with the other posters on the importance of being able to kill the jammers asap.

Even though they’re not technically illegal in BC, you’d like to keep it that way for yourself and everyone else.

There is a member here, who years ago did exactly what your suggesting. Unfortunately he was also video taping the fun of JTG on some Texas Leo’s.

The Leo’s did a little investigating and we’re able to get a law passed that made Lidar Jammers illegal in the state of Texas.

That’s the other reason we were so ticked off at Escort when they introduced their jammers without a auto kill option. It’s irresponsible.

Even though the use of jammers is legal, if more people do not use them discreetly, they will be band.
Yep, there used to be only one state where jammers were illegal in the US. Now there are 11 (or so). Ugh.
 

DC Fluid

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Well I hate to have to disagree with experienced respected members but,
I am an experience motorcyclist. Depending on conditions 3 seconds could pressure you into a panic application of brakes on a risky surface or corner. People with 4 wheels don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that we can't just grab full brake at any moment in time. Especially since most bikes on the road don't have ABS, stability or traction controls.
So we are disadvantaged in tha regard.
Also a motorcycle is such a harder target than a car I doubt an LEO would notice 3 vs. 4 or 5 second jammer.
I'm not in any way promoting full jammer all the time just because I can. I would prefer not to be noticed.
But the option to suit your ride and area needs is a feature that would make this system more appealing.
Make it hands free and automatic,
We have thick gloves up here in northern Canada.....
 

studio1930

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Well I hate to have to disagree with experienced respected members but,
I am an experience motorcyclist. Depending on conditions 3 seconds could pressure you into a panic application of brakes on a risky surface or corner. People with 4 wheels don't seem to be able to grasp the concept that we can't just grab full brake at any moment in time. Especially since most bikes on the road don't have ABS, stability or traction controls.
So we are disadvantaged in tha regard.
Also a motorcycle is such a harder target than a car I doubt an LEO would notice 3 vs. 4 or 5 second jammer.
I'm not in any way promoting full jammer all the time just because I can. I would prefer not to be noticed.
But the option to suit your ride and area needs is a feature that would make this system more appealing.
Make it hands free and automatic,
We have thick gloves up here in northern Canada.....
Excellent reply, DC Fluid. I think we are now saying the same thing that 3 seconds may not be enough for some situations on a motorcycle and that a programmable option would be preferred. I think I understand that you are not suggesting that we simply JTG because there is only that or a 3-second option on the TPX system, but some may be forced into that situation if Adaptiv does not offer more choices. I doubt that many would accept it if ALP only allowed 3 seconds or unlimited jamming, especially if they could not take their hands off the wheel and could not simply mash the brakes in all situations. ;)

-Studio1930
 

TurboDriver

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I have an ALP on my Goldwing, set it Auto kill to 6 seconds...I have always been able to kill quicker but want the option. There was only one time I pushed the 6 second barrier, it was because my wife was running behind me in the car, we we're both +17 and I did it to protect her and give her time to slow...it worked! She was running a Redline-O and it got the scatter!



Bikes are different but we still need to kill quickly, it sounds like the TPX needs a better option.

Posted from my moto x4 using the RDF Mobile App!
 

studio1930

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I have an ALP on my Goldwing, set it Auto kill to 6 seconds...I have always been able to kill quicker but want the option. There was only one time I pushed the 6 second barrier, it was because my wife was running behind me in the car, we we're both +17 and I did it to protect her and give her time to slow...it worked! She was running a Redline-O and it got the scatter!



Bikes are different but we still need to kill quickly, it sounds like the TPX needs a better option.

Posted from my moto x4 using the RDF Mobile App!
Great example, TurboDriver. That reminds me of another reason for longer kill times and that is when you are trying not to die. I don't allow others to follow me closely when I am on a motorcycle since I can slow down much more quickly than they can (if in a car/SUV/Truck). There are times when you are speeding along with a nice gap and suddenly someone tags on the back of you and just then you get a radar (or lidar) alert. You can't just mash the brakes on the motorcycle or you may feel what it is like to fly just before you die. In a car, you can get rear-ended pretty hard and still have no injuries. Just because a motorcyclist might be able to slow down from +50 (or so) in three seconds doesn't mean that it is safe to do so. Yes, a ticket is better than dying, but a longer jam time with no ticket (and probably not alerting the police to the CM community tools) and not dying is even better.
 

venom690

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We need the option for 5 seconds AND manual kill off by pressing of the power button once on the controller while the system is jamming.

I am not going to risk my life and driving record to avoid alerting officers to the use of jammers.

I may just do the switch option in the mean time since it is the best of both worlds, it kills the system when i have safely slowed down and it reboots the system instantly without having to hold the power button for 5 seconds.

I mean, if you hold the power button for for 2 seconds it switches the system to parking sensors (blue light) which would effectively make it a JTK , you just have to familiarize yourself with how long it takes , could you do that test maybe? Try simulating someone shooting at you while riding and reduce to PSL and hold and switch to parking mode and see how long the whole thing may take, it may just take 5 seconds overall

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Heywood

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Now you’ve all got me thinking how hard and long it would take to get a lock on me or my bike.

Still, JTG/JFG is a bad idea.

I agree something adjustable would be the best situation, but with everything going on at once, it’s better than nothing.

A momentary kill switch in the power supply while in test mode would be the best work around for now.

It’s hard enough in a car. It’ll be worse on a bike with everything else to consider.
 
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DC Fluid

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No you’ve all got me thinking how hard and long it would take to get a lock on me or my bike.
Do I sense a test in the future?
Different LiDAR guns, different bikes, hand held vs tripod.
Get a charcoal grey or raw carbon fiber sport bike with tiny led headlight, grey or black leather gear and helmet....
That will challenge any LiDAR gun to up its game.
 

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