Iran / War? (6 Viewers)

CPB

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mbsl500

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It's so easy to use the word "we" when deciding to go to war.
The fact is, "we" will not go to war. "We" will sit in the confort of our house, play on the internet, argue about radar detectors and BBQ on Saturdays.
"They" will go to war. Our young men and women who are wearing uniforms will be the one who lose legs and die.
"We" will not be the ones to risk our lives and come back in a body bag.
If you want to be part of "we" ..enlist and put on a uniform.
In the meantime, you might want to avoid using the word "we" when what you really mean is "someone else".

If you are wearing a uniform or have worn a uniform, thank you for your service.
 
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tempnexus

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It's too bad that most of the warmongering is being done by people who never served and don't know what it means to be in a war and in theater.


If every war were to be fought only by people who call for war than we would finally have peace.
 

STS134

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I have unlocked this thread, and will keep enforcing the rules as we see fit. We're done giving out warnings, everyone. It's not a lot to ask for when we ask for civility. I don't want to hear any discussions about this in this thread either, back on topic.


Iran shot down a drone today, more escalation. It'll be interesting to see where this goes.
So according to the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), to which nearly every country is a party except for Leichtenstein (which lacks an international airport) and the Cook Islands, international airspace begins 12 nautical miles off the coast of a country. High seas laws also apply to "international straits" whatever that means: https://www.icao.int/MID/Documents/2018/ACAC-ICAO Civ-Mil WS/19- Session 3.1-3.pdf

• In Summary………………….Over the High Sea only the relevant international law applies
• All States enjoy the freedom to overfly the high seas and so called “passages” (i.e. international straits)
• High seas start outside the territorial sea and the territorial sea extends up to a maximum of 12 NM from the national coastli
• High Seas airspace is not territorial airspace, hence national and/or other legislation DO NOT apply
I'd like to see the GPS data of that drone. All reported coordinates for the flight in question, as well as the last reported position, from the US military. Also, I want to see the Iranian data for all of the reported positions of the drone, both when it was fired at, and when it was hit.

Did it stray into Iranian airspace and then was fired at, and then the missile or whatever hit it ended up striking it in international airspace? Iran claims that the drone allegedly entered their airspace; the US says it was shot down over international waters. Note that both of these could be true simultaneously.
 

xydrine

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So according to the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), to which nearly every country is a party except for Leichtenstein (which lacks an international airport) and the Cook Islands, international airspace begins 12 nautical miles off the coast of a country: https://www.icao.int/MID/Documents/2018/ACAC-ICAO Civ-Mil WS/19- Session 3.1-3.pdf

I'd like to see the GPS data of that drone. All reported coordinates for the flight in question, as well as the last reported position, from the US military. Also, I want to see the Iranian data for all of the reported positions of the drone, both when it was fired at, and when it was hit.

Did it stray into Iranian airspace and then was fired at, and then the missile or whatever hit it ended up striking it in international airspace? Iran claims that the drone allegedly entered their airspace; the US says it was shot down over international waters. Note that both of these could be true simultaneously.
Oh come on now. If you are having to do that kind of specific data gathering, just for justification to shoot down a drone, the point is lost.

Just don't shoot down the damn drone when we are in a HEATED situation.

The president just said that shooting down the drone may have been a mistake. By a rouge element of the IRGC.

That makes you wonder - if the IRGC is at this point is going rogue, that introduces a number of questions to the situation.

It sounds like we're planning a military/kinetic response to this now, regardless.
 

STS134

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Oh come on now. If you are having to do that kind of specific data gathering, just for justification to shoot down a drone, the point is lost.

Just don't shoot down the damn drone when we are in a HEATED situation.

The president just said that shooting down the drone may have been a mistake. By a rouge element of the IRGC.

That makes you wonder - if the IRGC is at this point is going rogue, that introduces a number of questions to the situation.

It sounds like we're planning a military/kinetic response to this now, regardless.
Um...that GPS coordinates make a huge difference. If it didn't have justification to be there, they had a right to shoot it down, just like we'd have the right to shoot down an Iranian drone that comes too close to Hawaii or California. If it did stray into territorial airspace, then even if it was a "mistake" in that they didn't have orders to shoot it down, international law is on their side.

BTW, it gets more complicated due to the concept of transit passage, which includes the Strait of Hormuz. But check this out: UNITED NATIONS CONVENTION ON THE LAW OF THE SEA

Article 38
Right of transit passage


1. In straits referred to in article 37, all ships and aircraft enjoy the right of transit passage, which shall not be impeded; except that, if the strait is formed by an island of a State bordering the strait and its mainland, transit passage shall not apply if there exists seaward of the island a route through the high seas or through an exclusive economic zone of similar convenience with respect to navigational and hydrographical characteristics.

2. Transit passage means the exercise in accordance with this Part of the freedom of navigation and overflight solely for the purpose of continuous and expeditious transit of the strait between one part of the high seas or an exclusive economic zone and another part of the high seas or an exclusive economic zone. However, the requirement of continuous and expeditious transit does not preclude passage through the strait for the purpose of entering, leaving or returning from a State bordering the strait, subject to the conditions of entry to that State.

3. Any activity which is not an exercise of the right of transit passage through a strait remains subject to the other applicable provisions of this Convention.
So basically, you can only use transit passage if you are passing through from one area to another. If you're flying around back and forth to do surveillance, that appears to be prohibited by Article 38.

Why don't both sides SHOW US THE DATA?
 
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pwrpuma

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The SoH is now a contested area (ie diplomacy has failed).
 

xydrine

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They shot down a 180m$ US drone, there's going to be a military response, as there should be.
 

Delta7

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1 carrier strike group in the Persian Gulf could take out the entire Iranian Navy so I'm not too worried

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Delta7

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And I think we have like 6 or 7 CSG's.

My bad looked it up the US Navy has 11 Carrier Strike Groups. Lol.

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STS134

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They shot down a 180m$ US drone, there's going to be a military response, as there should be.
Yeah, I want to see the data on what happened. It's true, that even if a drone strays into your airspace, it's not nice to just shoot it down without warning. You should at least contact whoever is flying it and tell them to get out of your airspace, and give them time to respond. Was this done? If so, how long before they fired at it? Etc.

At this point, I'm more interested in seeing the data and logs of communication from each party than anything else. History makes a big difference too. If the US produces records showing that they flew drones through the Strait many times, on their way to other ships in international waters on the other side of the Strait, and this one happened to be the first one that accidentally strayed into territorial airspace somewhere near there, then I'd say Iran is provoking a war. If on the other hand, Iran shows data that the US has been repeatedly flying drones into their territorial airspace and they had warned them multiple times and this was going on for many days, then the US is provoking a war.
 
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Gunney57

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The Iranian provocation of the "Great Satan" is already having it's desired effect. That is apparent in this thread. Discord amongst is what they intend to cultivate.
 

pwrpuma

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If there is a response, it will be an Allied response. Personally, I think clear lines of maritime zones will be established and monitored in the SoH. I don’t know how long that would remain in effect, but as we saw in the Gulf War, those exclusion zones wear on a country.
 

xydrine

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The Iranian provocation of the "Great Satan" is already having it's desired effect. That is apparent in this thread. Discord amongst is what they intend to cultivate.
:lol: more or less.

I don't want to go to war with Iran. This administration does not want to go to war with Iran. But to say that the US is being provocative (not you, I'm saying, the media in general) is just ridiculous. Do you know what is provocative? Iran shooting down one of our unarmed drones over international waters.
 

Gunney57

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If there is a response, it will be an Allied response. Personally, I think clear lines of maritime zones will be established and monitored in the SoH. I don’t know how long that would remain in effect, but as we saw in the Gulf War, those exclusion zones wear on a country.
And discord among western "allies"....
 

xydrine

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If there is a response, it will be an Allied response. Personally, I think clear lines of maritime zones will be established and monitored in the SoH. I don’t know how long that would remain in effect, but as we saw in the Gulf War, those exclusion zones wear on a country.
The President just said that there won't be an announcement on our response about this just yet. Which basically means there's a military response being planned out right now as they don't announce before they hit military targets.

Briefings are being scheduled and the US-Canadian briefings are being pushed back right now at the white house and I guess they are in the situation room right now. ****s starting to get hot, yo.
 

Delta7

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:lol: more or less.

I don't want to go to war with Iran. This administration does not want to go to war with Iran. But to say that the US is being provocative (not you, I'm saying, the media in general) is just ridiculous. Do you know what is provocative? Iran shooting down one of our unarmed drones over international waters.
Knowing old Bolton, he'll lob a few Tomahawks as a response, do some damage to their ships and stop. Just enough to cause some damage but not start a full on war.
 

xydrine

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The U.S. has spent almost $75 million since you made this post.
Yes, it was bad....but thousands don't need to die over the shooting down of an unmanned done.
A proportional response will be done, thousands aren't going to die because of this, don't be melodramatic please.
 

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