Yet Another 737 MAX Crash

STS134

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tempnexus

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STS134

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It's because of government shutdown and Trump. Yeap that's it.

Let's pass the blame buck. Sigh.
That's a discussion better suited for MRGA, but I will say that even the perception that the FAA hasn't grounded the planes due to money, closeness of the current administration to Boeing, or really anything EXCEPT a concern for safety, IS a problem in that it shakes the public's confidence in our air travel system.
 

tempnexus

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That's a discussion better suited for MRGA, but I will say that even the perception that the FAA hasn't grounded the planes due to money, closeness of the current administration to Boeing, or really anything EXCEPT a concern for safety, IS a problem in that it shakes the public's confidence in our air travel system.
True but it's sad that blames are being passed and same old excuse is used.

 

ILS27L

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US just grounded the Max 8 and Max9
-- Double Post Merged: --
I can't wait to find out the FACTS of why these 2 planes crashed on takeoff. If the FDR shows the same or similar data to Lion air crash they will have their answer.
 
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tempnexus

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US just grounded the Max 8 and Max9
-- Double Post Merged: --
I can't wait to find out the FACTS of why these 2 planes crashed on takeoff. If the FDR shows the same or similar data to Lion air crash they will have their answer.
Well plane crashes come in threes so let's see.
 

STS134

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US just grounded the Max 8 and Max9
-- Double Post Merged: --
I can't wait to find out the FACTS of why these 2 planes crashed on takeoff. If the FDR shows the same or similar data to Lion air crash they will have their answer.
FAA cites "new evidence collected at the site and analyzed today" and "refined satellite data" as the reason for the grounding. In other words, admitting that they were morons all along and should have issued this order on Sunday, and that everyone who has gotten on one of these planes since then may have been sitting on a ticking time bomb that fortunately did not go off.

If there was uncertainty, these planes should have been grounded the whole time, unless and until that uncertainty has been resolved. NASA did not know at what temperature the O-rings would fail, but chose to go ahead with STS-51-L when there was uncertainty and the engineers couldn't give them an exact temperature for failure because they were following a procedure of "let's continue as scheduled unless we have conclusive data that proves that it's dangerous". It was a gamble that cost us the lives of 7 astronauts and a Space Shuttle Orbiter.
 

frameon

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Just read that the FAA has grounded all 737 MAX.


Posted from my iPhone using the RDF Mobile App!
 

tempnexus

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Just read that the FAA has grounded all 737 MAX.


Posted from my iPhone using the RDF Mobile App!
At least they allowed them to land...i.e. I read in the news that the planes are allowed to land and then be grounded...and I thought to myself: "As opposed to what? Directly fall out of the sky?"
 

STS134

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Apparently the FDR and CVR are still in Ethiopia. ET refuses to send the boxes to the US, and while it hasn't said why, it seems to reflect growing distrust of the US on aviation safety issues. Ethiopia refuses to send black box from crashed Boeing 737 Max 8 to United States for analysis

FAA should have been first to ground the planes, last Sunday. Then maybe the NTSB would get the boxes. Right now, the FAA looks like it puts Boeing's profits ahead of safety, and as a result, nobody trusts the US.
 

XDA

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The US grounded the Max 8s & 9s due to "new evidence collected at the site" and "new satellite data available." Well, anybody want to tell us what that is?
 

STS134

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Apparently Canada took a look at the satellite or ADS-B data and it looked similar to JT 610, so they pulled the plug on the MAX this morning. FAA followed this afternoon.

Here is another article that seems to contradict what The Globe And Mail reported. Not sure exactly what's going on. NTSB To Read FDR, CVR from Crashed Ethiopian Max 8 in U.S.

I really wonder what the folks at Boeing were thinking. They moved the engines forward so they could get more ground clearance for larger fan blades, which causes the plane to pitch up, then put together a kludgy software "fix" for this problem in the form of MCAS. Allegedly this was because they saw the success of the A320neo, and had insufficient time to go with a clean sheet design (had they done a clean sheet design, the engines would have been in the optimal spot, and there wouldn't have been a pitch up/stall problem at all). The A320 however is a much newer design, having entered service in the 1980s vs the 1960s for the 737, and actually had room for larger diameter engines in the optimal position. The writing was on the wall for the 737 airframe however as soon as they came out with the 737NG in the late 1990s, which has its characteristic nacelles that look like their bottoms are smashed due to the very limited ground clearance. Did they really expect to be selling the 737NG until 2025-2030? They should have started with a clean sheet literally as soon as the 737NG was released.
 
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Patton250

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FAA cites "new evidence collected at the site and analyzed today" and "refined satellite data" as the reason for the grounding. In other words, admitting that they were morons all along and should have issued this order on Sunday, and that everyone who has gotten on one of these planes since then may have been sitting on a ticking time bomb that fortunately did not go off.

If there was uncertainty, these planes should have been grounded the whole time, unless and until that uncertainty has been resolved. NASA did not know at what temperature the O-rings would fail, but chose to go ahead with STS-51-L when there was uncertainty and the engineers couldn't give them an exact temperature for failure because they were following a procedure of "let's continue as scheduled unless we have conclusive data that proves that it's dangerous". It was a gamble that cost us the lives of 7 astronauts and a Space Shuttle Orbiter.
They should definitely ground these things until they are 1000% positive what the problem is and they correct it.
 

STS134

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What do you know. It's the fox guarding the hen house. Opinion | The 737 Max Is Grounded, No Thanks to the F.A.A.

Summary for people who are too lazy to clear cookies to get past the paywall:
  • Aviation regulators have allowed the airline industry to have too much power.
  • There was a major change in the FAA's regulatory responsibility in 2005, where rather than naming and supervising its own "designated airworthiness representatives", the FAA decided to allow Boeing and other manufacturers to select their own employees to certify the safety of their aircraft.
  • The change was justified by saying that it would save the aviation industry about $25 billion from 2006-2015 and is a worrying move toward self-certification.
  • Since this new regulatory scheme took effect, Boeing has introduced 2 new aircraft types, the 787 Dreamliner and the 737 MAX, both of which have now had serious problems resulting (eventually) in the grounding of the type. The 787 problems related to battery fires.
  • After the 787 battery fires, the FAA quickly recertified the 787, even though the cause of the problem had not yet been identified.
  • The FAA used to lead the world in aviation safety, but now it seems to be lagging in the rear.
  • Congress needs to act to make sure that the FAA appoints its own independent experts.
I would point out that in this same time period, new Airbus models, including the new A350, have thus far had zero serious problems found with them.
 

ILS27L

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My opinion only. I am NOT an expert by any stretch of the imagination.

I have a feeling this will turn out to be an MCAS system issue. It is my understanding is it can be (the automation) turned off when a malfunction occurs. Yes, The pilots have to determine the issue. The news folks are saying some pilots have complained about this system. I wonder if they are pilots from overseas or US pilots or both. I hope they(FAA) can gather the data from the FDR's and CVR's to determine what did happen and quickly.
 

Frankrizzo

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My opinion only. I am NOT an expert by any stretch of the imagination.

I have a feeling this will turn out to be an MCAS system issue. It is my understanding is it can be (the automation) turned off when a malfunction occurs. Yes, The pilots have to determine the issue. The news folks are saying some pilots have complained about this system. I wonder if they are pilots from overseas or US pilots or both. I hope they(FAA) can gather the data from the FDR's and CVR's to determine what did happen and quickly.
You are more correct than most. I’m a commercial pilot and yes I believe MCAS is the root of the issue. All transport cat airframes and business jets have stick shaker and pusher systems with various computer systems and algorithms on how and when they determine to push a nose over. The MCAS system has a different procedure when dealing with abnormalities than older more legacy systems. The news reports of airline pilot groups being upset was the Boeing provided information was limited and not as complete as some would expect going into those models of the Max.

The first crash tailnumber had a number of preceding days write ups with malfunctioning equipment related to the push system like angle of attack vanes and likely shouldn’t have been put back into service when it crashed. There were turnback aborts just within the week of the crash with that specific plane and it’s obvious the airline knew it was an unhealthy plane.

I don’t necessarily believe MCAS on it’s own is totally responsible some is training. We’ve seen similar instances where a malfunctiong sensors or collection of sensors fail in a highly automated aircraft and basic power, speed, pitch training is not given equal time and value as pure automated flight regimes are. We saw this with Air France 447.
 

ILS27L

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Thank you Frank, Very good explanation. Stick and rudder still applies.
 
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holeinthehead

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They sent them to Germany.
 

CobawLT2010

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They sent them to Germany.
France because Germany doesn’t have the software or system to read the data.

My first thoughts on this were great France...
 

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