Non emitting Jammer

Discussion in 'General Laser Jammer Discussion' started by Kiwi H2, Sep 11, 2018.

  1. Kiwi H2

    Kiwi H2 Learning to Drive General User

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    Hi all, I am heavily involved in microwave technology but I have put my mind to the Laser. Please tell me where the LEO's are trained to point the beam, front and rear. Thank's for probably asking what you already know but I have this idea....
     
  2. 87GN

    87GN TXCTG Rollin' Steel Wheels============ Advanced User Acceptus Premium Member

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    Ok .. I'll bite. Center mass or front plate, then headlights. Rear center mass or plate, tail lamps.
     
  3. benzr

    benzr Been there done that !! Original V1 user !! Advanced User

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    Bsd bite i am guessing
    Not sure though


    Posted from my iPhone using the RDF Mobile App!
     
  4. InsipidMonkey

    InsipidMonkey Premium Monkey Advanced User Acceptus Premium Member

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    If you're thinking of an IR absorbing coating (eg "Veil") or something like Vantablack, it has been tried and is not effective against modern guns. Veil is pure snake oil, and there has been plenty written on testing and the lack of effectiveness on this and other forums. There have been some recent posts testing Vantablack as well, suggesting such an approach is not feasible. A quick forum search will yield a ton of reading.
     
  5. Kiwi H2

    Kiwi H2 Learning to Drive General User

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    Thank's for the reply and it's nothing like paint etc.
     
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  6. STS134

    STS134 Premium Member Advanced User Premium Member

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  7. Kiwi H2

    Kiwi H2 Learning to Drive General User

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    No, nothing like that, your trying to use brute force techniques but what I am mainly interested in is the software in both LIDAR and Microwave. It's made it easier now they have gone digital with all their gear. A sword has two edges, cuts both ways.
     
  8. STS134

    STS134 Premium Member Advanced User Premium Member

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    What does this have to do with jamming? Jamming is an active countermeasure technology that throws out pulses to confuse LIDAR guns.
     
  9. Kiwi H2

    Kiwi H2 Learning to Drive General User

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    If that's your thought's on this then you must be a LEO, not very imaginative. If I am in the wrong thread then I will just carry on and post somewhere else when I make further progress.
     
  10. dudeinnz

    dudeinnz NZCTG Moderator Advanced User Premium Member

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  11. johnboy00

    johnboy00 Geaux Tigers! Advanced User Premium Member

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    Fiber optic light pipes that route light around the vehicle?
     
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  12. thanks

    thanks for all the fish Advanced User Acceptus Premium Member

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    Hey any new idea to help as a working cm should be investigated!


    Posted from my V1
     
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  13. Eloi

    Eloi Premium Member Advanced User Premium Member

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  14. DChiJEllis

    DChiJEllis Moderator Moderator Advanced User Premium Member

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    We vet Advanced Members before promotion. I would recommend caution before throwing around casual responses like "you must be an LEO".
     
  15. sdrawkcab

    sdrawkcab sdrawkcaB|Backwards Advanced User Premium Member

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    I’m going to spend a moment teaching what I learned when researching Vanta Black and other similar paints. This isn’t as much directed at you,@InsipidMonkey , as much as it is more of me taking the chance to clarify the difference between real Vanta Black and other similar but really very different second bests.

    The actual real Vanta Black is not available to consumers. It is only available to universities, government, and major government contractors for potential use in military application. Vanta Black is an amazing technology, but not something within reach of a consumer like us due to the highly specialized production process. That said, there are other attempts to produce a black pigment paint that is as close to 0 light reflectance as possible such as Stewart’s Black (spelling?) They look impressive, and contain 5x more black pigment than other common flat black paints — yet they still do not compare
    to Vanta Black’s performance.

    Vanta Black is literally the composition of nano tubes formed out of pure carbon molecules. These tubes are built up at the molecular level and arranged parallel to each other on a surface plane. They would resemble the appearance of a honey comb-like surface if you could see them. As such they trap light photons that enter, and the light converts to friction and heat, which would quickly dissipate.

    Due to the pure size, composition of carbon, and relative depth of the carbon tubes (at the tiniest level), they are effective at trapping literally over 99% of light, which would include Infrared. The costs involved to produce it, the patents covering it, and the military use / potential use of it, it is highly regulated by the creators. It is possible to get very very small samples of paint and or surfaces of various materials painted with it, however you have to be with the government or a university research team for them to even consider permitting you to buy it.

    Even if you could get it, there are lots of challenges. Getting it in a fluid paint form would mean the carbon tubes would be suspended in liquid, and would be arranged in all different directions. Like having a pile of straws in every angle and position, as opposed to having a stack of straws all parallel. The liquid paint form would absolutely be much much lower than the effectiveness of getting the manufacturer and creators to send you a specific surface material precoated with it.

    When you order their precoated material sample, they coat it using their specialized process where the carbon tubes are constructed one layer at a time, forming the erect tubes coming off the surface plane, parallel to each other — in other words, a perfectly manufactured honeycomb of carbon tubes.

    To summarize, Vanta Black is the most black material you can get for a paint. Unfortunately it is highly regulated and getting samples is very difficult. Even if you qualify to purchase it, the liquid paint form is the “lesser” version of it. To get the ultimate form of Vanta Black in its carbon honeycomb structure, you essentially have to use their highly specialized unique manufacturing process directly right on top of the material you wish to cover it with.

    But wait, there is more! Even with all of that, the carbon surface is very fragile. Touching it would break the tubes as well as cause the tubes to become covered with impurities. You would have to have a way to protect the surface from any and all elemental contact. In the world of cars, and paint on the outside surface of cars, that is basically an oxymoron. A surface paint for a moving vehicle that would never be touched by moisture, dirt, rocks, wind and dust, etc.

    Undoubtedly the creators of Vanta Black specialize in this product and continued research and development of it as well as learning ways to apply it for new uses.

    This is the point where all the publicly readable
    information fades away, and where all reading materials invite you to contact them if you’re
    still reading thus far. Basically you’d have to have crazy deep pockets and be from an ABC Government organization and military research and development to be able to convince them to partner with you for developing it for a more specific use. For example, besides the obvious use of camouflage on military ground vehicles, it would also be desired for use on spy satellites in order to mask all light reflectance and make a given spy satellite that much harder to detect.

    I won’t speak to any conspiracy theories, but I will tell you I have once been privileged to talk with an aero science engineer as I drove him to the airport while I did Lyft. I will honestly never remember his name, but I will always remember what he taught me about the way things are at 22,000 miles above our heads. He told me in a very generalized manner of the very impressive advancements that nation states had made in the game of cat and mouse with regards to making their own satellites as undetectable in space as possible, as well as the methodologies governments use to detect unfriendly spy satellites presence. It was fascinating.

    Needless to say, this paint I’m certain without any doubt at all is being actively developed for multiple allied governments top secret use. For ALL the states reasons above, it will be a long dang time before the likes of car enthusiasts ever get access to the purest honeycomb form of it for practical use on a vehicle. Don’t bother marking your calendar.

    The next best choices are basically regular pigment paint where large doses of black pigment are used in the mix. Even if you do go that route, you’d still have to put a protective
    sealer coating over it which would keep
    it intact — which again brings up another issue. Protective clear coatings will end up being reflective and negating the light absorbing effects of what is underneath it. It wouldn’t be a 1:1 ratio, but still you would need to consider that reflectance of the protective coating before bothering to put on the very dark pigment paint.

    At the end of the day, consider using a very dark black matte paint that is made
    for withstanding the elements, such as the thermal tolerant paint they sell that you can paint on your outdoor gas grill. If that isn’t what you want, then don’t bother as the gains are slim to none with anything else.

    The advice I ended up giving myself after what I learned was this.

    Eliminate or reduce Chrome
    Eliminate or reduce Lights, Light Housings and reflectors.
    Eliminate or reduce Hard smooth surfaces.
    Eliminate or reduce metallic paint.
    Eliminate or reduce glass. Heh. Not exactly going to take my windshield off, but hey, here’s the principle for the sake of being thorough.

    The less flat front facing surface area the vehicle has, the better.

    Corvettes are reported here to be some
    of the hardest vehicles to hit with LIDAR from the front. Trucks and SUVs, and minivans are
    some of the easiest. Larger surface area facing back at you = more to hit and more that will be reflected directly back.

    Obviously I don’t expect anyone to be able to implement these principles unless they drive a sand rail with no windshield, no lights, and painted it up and down with the darkest matte black. But most of us aren’t going to be doing that now either.

    I decided on my vehicle I would do what to me seemed reasonable. Change my grill to a matte black, and remove my reflectors. The other things to me were just not reasonable. I still need my vehicle to be drivable haha.

    To each their own. Best of luck and I hope this has been helpful regarding the mystery of blackening paint for reducing LIDAR reflectance.


    Written from my mobile device.

    Edit notes: corrected satellite orbit distance from sea level, credit to @BlueV1
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2018
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  16. Kiwi H2

    Kiwi H2 Learning to Drive General User

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    Nowhere near what I have in mind.
     
  17. thanks

    thanks for all the fish Advanced User Acceptus Premium Member

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    Whenever you are ready to shed some light on your ideas, there are many hear waiting to hear them!
     
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  18. sdrawkcab

    sdrawkcab sdrawkcaB|Backwards Advanced User Premium Member

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    Respectfully, I knew that before I posted the reply. I simply wanted to teach what I knew since it was mentioned.

    Realize that these are conversations with many participants, all spawning off the thread topic and prior replies. Just like an in person conversation with a group of people, the subjects are dynamic between the multiple participants. A very different environment than Quora or Stack Exchange. :)


    Written from my mobile device.
     
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  19. Deacon

    Deacon TXCTG Advanced User Premium Member

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    Very useful, thanks!
     
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  20. Kiwi H2

    Kiwi H2 Learning to Drive General User

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    My interest is in the software the units use to get to a lock speed so I have to study this, I am sure it's similar to radar guns which I have had success with.