TXCTG - Max 360c 2/5/8 vs Unsegmented, R3 Hwy vs Adv vs City 34.7 Testing Waco Pioneer 11-12-2017

Brainstorm69

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INTRO

Well, I happened to be driving through Waco yesterday on the way back from visiting an out-of-town friend. Since the last time we tested the Max 360c, it turned out we were testing unsegmented, I decided to stop by the Pioneer test course and get a few quick runs in testing the Max 360c segmented vs unsegmented against Ka 34.7. Since I also had my R3 along for the trip, I thought I'd try a few quick runs of Hwy vs Adv vs City, all while segmented 2/5/8. I have seen some posts where folks seemed to think that either advanced or city mode actually cuts down on Ka sensitivity vs Hwy mode. Thought I'd test that out while I was at it. @Jag42 @Deacon @TXLe


THE DETECTORS
  • Escort Max 360c
  • Uniden R3

THE COURSE

Again, most of you are familiar with the Waco Pioneer Course, but for those that aren't, here is an overhead view from Google Maps.

Pioneer Pkwy Course.jpg



THE RESULTS

**********Test One - Ka 34.7 Angled 60 Degrees**********

TXCTG Ka 34.7 Angled 60 Degrees Table (By Detector) 11-12-2017.jpg


TXCTG Ka 34.7 Angled 60 Degrees Graph (Ranked by Avg) 11-12-2017.jpg



Commentary
  • Since I was only testing 2 detectors, I decided to get some extra data and do 5 runs at each setting with the Max 360c instead of the usual 3. I did only do 3 runs with each setting on the R3.
  • The Stalker ATR was angled pretty severely, as I didn't want to max out the course for the R3 runs.
  • For the R3 in Advanced mode, the settings were Ka 100%, K 50%. X-Band was off for all runs. Otherwise all settings were the same except for the mode.
  • For the Max 360c, all settings were the same except that when segmented, it was Ka set to 2/5/8. When unsegmented, Ka was on. K was segmented for all runs, 1/2/3.
  • The table shows all data. The graph is of averages.
  • As is usually the case, in such difficult test conditions, the R3 outperformed the Max 360c by a substantial margin.
  • In what seemed like a somewhat strange result for the R3s, on average, City mode outperformed Advanced mode which outperformed Hwy mode. It seemed like it was a little traffic dependent. Having a just a little bit of traffic seemed to provide a chance for an early whiff from a reflection off a car that an absolutely clean (no traffic) run didn't. So I don't know that I would expect City to out perform Advanced, and Advanced to do better than Hwy. I'd actually take these results to show that neither City mode nor Advanced mode seemed to hinder performance. That would be consistent with what Uniden has told us.
  • Segmentation on the Max 360c seemed to provide just a hint of extra performance, but nothing huge. 6% in this case.

**********Test Two - Ka 34.7 On Axis**********

TXCTG Ka 34.7 On Axis Table (By Detector) 11-12-2017.jpg


TXCTG Ka 34.7 On Axis Table (Ranked by Avg) 11-12-2017.jpg



Commentary
  • After getting such poor results with the gun angled 60 degrees, I decided to point it on axis down the course and test the Max 360c again. I didn't retest the R3, since everything would have just maxed out the course.
  • The table shows all data. The graph is of averages.
  • The 360c did much better in detection distances with the gun aimed straight down the course.
  • Again, it did a little better segmented than unsegmented. Slightly less on a percentage basis than in the first test (4% vs 6%), although the absolute difference was, of course, larger (72 meters vs 130 meters).
  • I had to estimate/recall by memory the last run of the 360c segmented, as my dashcam somehow corrupted that last file. But I do remember it getting an alert pretty much as soon as I turned around to start down the course. I looked at Google maps, and it suggested the distance was over 3800 meters, but my recollection is that it was 3760ish. So that's what I used in these results.

FINAL THOUGHTS

I wanted to get some evidence one way or the other on both the 360c segmentation question and the R3 Hwy/Adv/City question. I didn't have much time to test, so hopefully sometime soon TXCTG can get in some fuller testing across all Ka bands. As always, remember, this is just one test. You need to look at various tests, by various people, at various times, under various conditions to get a true picture of a detector's capabilities.
 
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fitz4321

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Thank you for this test. I know this test was primarily for the 360c but I have had a theory about the R3 that this test gives me some conformation.

I’ve always believed that the R3 did better in City mode then Highway mode. I thought that on highway the processor has to work harder due to the filtering of K band. Since city reduces the K signal, there is less noise to filter, hence opening up the reaction time for KA band.

I have little to no knowledge of how electrics work but in my simple way of interpreting what I’ve seen, it makes sense to me.
 
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Jag42

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Awesome ! I wonder if City mode on the R3,gives Ka a bit more boost since K sensitvity is sliced in half.
 

hiddencam

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You know you're a CM nut when ... LOL

Very nice work!
 

Brainstorm69

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Awesome ! I wonder if City mode on the R3,gives Ka a bit more boost since K sensitvity is sliced in half.
Again, we probably need to test this more extensively. I got shorter alert distances when there was no traffic than when there was just a little.

--- Post updated ---

You know you're a CM nut when ... LOL

Very nice work!
Yeah, while I'm at the McDonalds deciding whether or not to go run a quick test (which I ultimately couldn't resist), @Jag42 is sending me pics of the beach in Florida....lol.
 

milkman

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Thanks again Guys!
 

NPark

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Awesome! Thanks for testing! @Brainstorm69

Off-axis was NEVER a strong point for any of the Max's. That, and 34.7 being its weak point only means one thing=TERRIBLE.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Deacon

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Now that’s dedication. Well run. If I had to guess, I’d say the R3 variance would essentially fall within the margin of error, so to speak, for those tests, where you’re already on the verge of maxing out the course even at 60 degrees off-axis. You weren’t battling a barrage of BSM falses on the Pioneer course, I’m sure, for the speculation that the Uniden is having to work harder at filtering in Highway mode and thus isn’t processing as quickly.

I really wish the segmentation would’ve elevated the 360c to something a little more worthy of its eye-watering price point.
 

PointerCone

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Great job! Just goes to show that a modified M4 antenna is still relatively blind off axis as well. What did they expect?

@Brainstorm69 I assume all of the alerts would have been enough for a save correct?? Also, how does the rear horn seem to detect when you turn around on the run to go back and start again?
 

westwind77

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I'm glad to see the 360 has range on axis - typically how a LEO would be shooting and plenty of time for a save without a question....if on a straight. What shocks me is that the R3 @60 degrees out-ranged the 360 on axis, that to me is just amazing. I know 34.7 is also the R3's strength and the 360's weakness. I have had decent 34.7 results with my 360, and with my R3. However, I have yet to see an impressive 34.7 from my R3, which just slightly concerns me after seeing so many comparisons between the 2 units and the differences shown. Then again, a lot of the testing is done at angles where that really shows the separation vs if you have along straight. I think I am running into a lot of terrain limitation with my units trying to compare them. The last thing I think any of the testers on here need is 'another' R3 to run through the mix but I am curious to see if mine is up to par with Uniden's standards or if truly it comes down to terrain in my area.
 

Brainstorm69

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First, let's remember that having the gun angled isn't quite the same as off-axis. It's just projecting a much weaker signal on-axis with one of its side lobes.

Secondly, I didn't try figuring out the kill zone with the gun pointed 60 degrees across the road, but LOS is about a half mile (or maybe just a little more), so it's possible the 360c was getting close to the kill zone at just a tenth or 2 over LOS.

Finally, @PointerCone, thanks for reminding me about rear detection. I did measure the rear detection once for both segmented and unsegmented on the 360c. It was .590 miles (950 meters) segmented and .598 miles (962 meters) unsegmented. Only a couple of hundred meters shorter than the front antenna alerts. Somewhat strange that unsegmented actually did a little better, but it was only one run each, and with the latch, etc., it's always a bit dicey getting an exact reading of when it quits alerting.

--- Post updated ---

The last thing I think any of the testers on here need is 'another' R3 to run through the mix but I am curious to see if mine is up to par with Uniden's standards or if truly it comes down to terrain in my area.
I'm pretty sure that @Jag42 and I are going to, at some time, ask for folks that are concerned about their R series detector range to send them to us for a test. Just not sure exactly when yet.;) @LeftLaneInPA
 
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RobK

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I'm wondering if the R3 City results would be similar with K band off freeing up the processor to focus
on KA. Have to go through the previous tests to compare.
 

leesrt

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So my question is the 360c actually segmenting or is it just filtering it's response? If its the later it seems Cedar Electronics rep lied at the trade show when directly asked about that by Vortex.
 

Brainstorm69

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The last thing I think any of the testers on here need is 'another' R3 to run through the mix but I am curious to see if mine is up to par with Uniden's standards or if truly it comes down to terrain in my area.
I think @Jag42 and I are still going to, at some time, ask for folks that are concerned about their R series detector range to send them to us for a test. Just not sur
I'm wondering if the R3 City results would be similar with K band off freeing up the processor to focus
on KA. Have to go through the previous tests to compare.
There's always lots of potential variables to test. That's why having lots of testers on the Forum testing different things is important. :)

--- Post updated ---

So my question is the 360c actually segmenting or is it just filtering it's response? If its the later it seems Cedar Electronics rep lied at the trade show when directly asked about that by Vortex.
Escort gave us conflicting answers between what the rep told @Vortex and what Escort is saying on their forum. More testing is needed to confirm, but it appears from this test that perhaps actual segmentation is going on. But remember that, on the Redline-O for example, most of the additional range came from turning RDR off, not segmenting. There is no RDR On/Off switch on the 360c, so you can't turn RDR off (assuming the 360c still uses that for reducing Ka falsing) even if you segment.
 
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crabu2

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Guys, could having arrows be the reason for not having good off axis detections?

I'm thinking that because the detector needs to know which signal is stronger.. front or rear.. to figure out where to point the arrow, the horn design isn't setup for off-axis.
 

westwind77

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I think @Jag42 and I are still going to, at some time, ask for folks that are concerned about their R series detector range to send them to us for a test. Just not sure
If this does happen feel free to let me know, would love to see how mine stacks up!
 

Holla

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Nice Quick testing! So whats the diff between Highway SEG and Advanced SEG?
 

Brainstorm69

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Nice Quick testing! So whats the diff between Highway SEG and Advanced SEG?
Should be nothing that affects Ka really, since I had Ka set at 100%. But some folks said they thought they were getting less Ka range with Advanced at 100% or City mode, so I wanted to test it out and see if the results were consistent with those anecdotal accounts.

--- Post updated ---

Guys, could having arrows be the reason for not having good off axis detections?

I'm thinking that because the detector needs to know which signal is stronger.. front or rear.. to figure out where to point the arrow, the horn design isn't setup for off-axis.
I think the horn was pretty much designed before Escort had arrows at all. It's basically an analog M4 horn turned digital as I understand it And the M4 was engineered to be more "blind" to off-axis to help with K-band falsing as I understand it. If I'm wrong about that, please someone with better knowledge of the subject correct my statements.
 

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