TXCTG – Max 360 FW 1.5 vs FW 1.6 K-band Testing Van Alstyne 09-09-2017

Discussion in 'Countermeasure Testing & Related Videos' started by Brainstorm69, Sep 10, 2017.

  1. Brainstorm69

    Brainstorm69 TXCTG Advanced User Premium Member

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    INTRO

    Thanks to @nbulatovic and his EFL tool, I was able to do this comparative testing yesterday on the Van Alstyne course. I had rolled my Max 360 back to 1.5 FW, and had a laptop with me to use his tool to update to 1.6 in the field as I tested. (EDIT: 9/20/2017 - we now now that 1.5 requires a rollback of the Antenna fw to 1.1. That was not done for these tests, so you need to understand that what we thought was 1.5 and I tested here was not really 1.5 as it would be if you never updated to 1.6).

    THE DETECTOR

    Escort Max 360 FW 1.5 and FW 1.6

    THE COURSE

    Well, you seen it before, it’s the Van Alstyne course in Van Alstyne, TX. It’s a nice, long (3 miles), straight course, with some dips and high spots along the way. There are various points on the course where a sensitive detector can catch a signal, and some points where it can’t. I spent about the first 45 minutes of my test time trying to set things up to get some proper separation. For whatever reason, the spot I had the radar gun last time wasn’t working too well, and the detections were quite short. I ultimately had to move the radar gun to a higher point a bit closer to the road. And I decided to use my MPH Python II FS for this test rather than my Bushnell (as was used in the last).

    I’ve marked them on a map of the course below, so you can visually see where the potential detection points for the Max 360 are, and the dead spots in between where there’s no way it’s going to catch a whiff of the radar signal. These may have shifted a bit with the new radar gun placement, but are generally still correct.


    TXCTG Van Alstyne K-Band 09-01-2017.



    RESULTS

    K-band On-Axis

    TXCTG Van Alstyne K-band Results Table (By Detector) 09-09-2017.

    TXCTG Van Alstyne K-band Results Table (By Rank) 09-09-2017.

    TXCTG Van Alstyne K-band Results Graph (By Rank) 09-09-2017.




    K-band Commentary

    · With the new radar gun placement, Hwy mode with either FW produced some long detections. All Hwy mode runs for each FW alerted soon after starting the course with a couple of exceptions. There were a couple of anomalous runs with FW 1.5 in Hwy mode that were shorter. However, Hwy mode suddenly looks like maybe no sensitivity haircut between 1.5 and 1.6 in this testing, despite anecdotal evidence to the contrary.

    · Auto mode looks to be another story, however. Auto mode for 1.6 was the worst of all modes for either FW with the exception of one 1.5 Auto run, which still equaled the best 1.6 Auto run. And for 1.6, Auto with TSR on was the worst.

    · For the Auto mode runs, I did give them some extra length at the beginning of the course to get up to speed (at least 60 mph) for a few runs until it became apparent that it wouldn’t matter. Auto mode never came close to alerting near the course start. All the Auto runs were at at least 60 mph and usually closer to 70 mph.


    FINAL THOUGHTS


    Initially, we thought FW 1.6 in Hwy mode had taken a haircut vs. 1.5. Now on this test at least, that doesn’t look to be the case. Hwy mode for 1.5 and 1.6 generally looked the same. Auto mode does look to have taken a haircut to sensitivity in FW 1.6, but I was surprised at the difference between Hwy and Auto for 1.5. Again, tending to indicate Hwy and Auto have never been that close in detection distance for the Max 360.


    I expect some folks to wonder if nbulatovic’s tool and fw images do what they are supposed to do, and whether these results can be counted on to accurately reflect the true state of affairs between FW 1.5 and FW 1.6. All I can say is that Max 360 appears to work as it should with either FW image loaded. However, I will have a Max 360 that hasn’t been updated to 1.6 yet, in my hands soon, and will be testing it and then updating it in the field, hopefully using DT so there will be no question of whether thing are as they are supposed to be.


    I will end with my usual admonishment: This is just one test. You need to look at various tests, by various people, at various times, on various courses to try to get to a complete picture of a detector. So make sure to do your research, look at as many tests as you can, and find out as much information as you can.
     
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2017 at 9:04 PM
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  2. Deacon

    Deacon TXCTG Advanced User Premium Member

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    Well done!
     
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  3. Jag42

    Jag42 TXCTG Advanced User Premium Member

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    Nicely done ! Are you going to have more testing in you,for TXCTG next weekend?
    @Deacon @TXLe
     
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  4. Dukes

    Dukes Security Detachment Security Detachment Moderator Premium Member

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    Excellent testing as always! Thank you :)
     
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  5. Vortex

    Vortex Making Videos Administrator Premium Member

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    Great work! Yeah so it looks like there's a sensitivity reduction with Auto mode, but not with Highway mode. So good to have some direct head to head testing!

    I've got the 360 1.5 on hand now and will get it and the Redline EX headed over to you in time for next weekend's testing. :)
     
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  6. SixPackABS

    SixPackABS PSL +15 Advanced User

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    Wow thanks again peeps for this test.

    --- Post updated ---

    Time for a rematch with the R3 Highway mode TSR off.
     
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  7. patscogs

    patscogs Flying Beginner User Premium Member

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    so, now that we know the FW didnt take a haircut ...is there some way to test the filtering - just long car rides I suppose ?

    thats what the real update was about - now that the witch hunt is over, we should do some serious BSM filter testing

    it is still weird how BRD recreated those delayed results when shooting QT... @ vortex @Brainstorm69 - any thoughts?
     
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  8. Brainstorm69

    Brainstorm69 TXCTG Advanced User Premium Member

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    You know I can't get enough...lol

    --- Post updated ---

    I'm not sure I'd say we know for sure. But this is good evidence. Hopefully will get some more next weekend.
     
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  9. warnerwh

    warnerwh Premium Member Intermediate User Premium Member

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    Thank you for your effort!
     
  10. westwind77

    westwind77 PSL +5 Intermediate User

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    Very interesting results! I ran v1.5 (roll back) on a road trip today....had a couple BSM's but not many...the ramp up was smooth though, unlike with v1.6, at least with quick changes with intensity. Thank you VERY much for the testing!
     
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  11. leanintoit

    leanintoit Learning to Drive General User

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    Brainstorm69, Thank you for taking the time to perform these tests, compiling the info, and sharing the results with all of us.

    I'm having a hard time reconciling the difference in detection distances between the Sept 1 testing vs Sept 9 testing. It appears that the weather conditions on those two days as recorded at the McKinney National Airport(20 miles south) were similar with about 10% lower humidity on Sept 9. The Sept 1 testing only had 1 Max360 detection in Hwy mode at your first detection zone around the 3 mile mark but the Sept 9 testing almost consistently showed detection in Hwy mode at the first detection zone at the 3 mile mark.

    I'm guessing the difference is either the humidity variation between the two days or its the two different K band guns your using, the MPH Python II FS for this Sept 9 testing and your Bushnell for the Sept 1 testing. Do you know if the Bushnell is a somewhat lower power unit than the Python? If the Bushnell is a lower power unit I think it may be more telling of general K band detector performance on this course. What I mean by that is that if the Bushnell is a lower power unit it would take a better detector and/or better software to pick up the Bushnell from a longer distance than it would for the same detector to pick up the Python. Could it be that this course is range limited with the Max360 in Hwy mode using the Python but not with the Bushnell? The power output of each of these two radar units is likely another subject to be explored outside of these Max360 tests but perhaps you already know and can share the answer.

    What are your thoughts on the detection distance variation between the two tests? Again thank you for sharing!
     
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  12. Brainstorm69

    Brainstorm69 TXCTG Advanced User Premium Member

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    There is a difference in the output power between the radars (the Python has a higher output), and there was also a difference in where the radar gun was positioned. In the first test, the Bushnell was on a shorter stand, on lower ground and farther from the road. The difference in height may have been as much as 3 or 4 feet, and the Python gun was probably as much as 6 feet closer to the road. There was also vegetation blocking some of the signal (mainly tall grass/weeds), and it may have been worse for the Bushnell where it was positioned.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2017
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  13. PointerCone

    PointerCone M3 Kng Advanced User Premium Member

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    Great job @Brainstorm69 !!! Looking at the results, Auto with TSR on in FW 1.6 is downright dangerous and essentially should never be used . Problem is, joe average driver may set-it forget it in that mode, not know the difference and then get owned while thinking he's got the quietest detector ever.

    Anecdotally, I passed a newly placed K band speed sign in Volo IL yesterday that had not been stationary locked out and on Auto Mode, TSR on, it never alerted from a 1/4 mile away until I was literally on top of it, < 50 feet. Scary indeed if it had been a real Leo shooting even C/O on the side of road.

    I maintain that IVT and Auto Mode with TSR on are double or triple filtering ( introducing delay) K band falsing and you're tests bear that out.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
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  14. SixPackABS

    SixPackABS PSL +15 Advanced User

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    Time for a rematch with the R3
     
  15. PointerCone

    PointerCone M3 Kng Advanced User Premium Member

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    That's like MacGregor asking Mayweather for a rematch. Results will be pretty much the same. The thing I prefer with the R3 is that I can manually dial down K band sensitivity in small graduations " knowing where I'm going" , whereas on the Max360, you're chopping it's head off with Auto mode and TSR on. That may not be a big deal for the enthusiast who goes in knowing that, but for the average joe user trying to make his detector quiet, it's downright dangerous. Almost like driving bare on K band.

    Note as well from his excellent bar graph, that the big differentiating factor is not so much TSR on or off, it's Auto mode v. Highway.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
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  16. itwasntme

    itwasntme Premium Member Advanced User Premium Member

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    Excellent job, thank you for all the hard work.
     
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  17. fuelforfire87

    fuelforfire87 Learning to Drive General User

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    Well, looks like I'll be keeping 1.3/1.6 for now. I have yet to see a legit K band encounter in my area. Only K band alerts I get are speed signs and falses. I always run in highway mode anyways. Thanks Brainstorm69 for testing this.
     
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  18. Driver66

    Driver66 Probably driving Beginner User Premium Member

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    As usual great work. Thank you. Interesting to see that the Highway mode didn't take a hit, but as expected auto was clipped hard.
     
  19. milkman

    milkman Premium Member Advanced User Premium Member

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    Nice Job guys! Thanks again for sharing! I really don't know what we would do with out you!
     
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  20. Brainstorm69

    Brainstorm69 TXCTG Advanced User Premium Member

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    Added information to the original post that what was tested here turned out to not really be 1.5 as it would be if you had never updated.