Testing how Auto Mode & TSR reduce range (1 Viewer)

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Vortex

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Blind spot falses suck and sometimes we basically HAVE to run it nowadays or else the detectors may become basically useless. It's all well and good to test radar detectors with the filters turned off to see how they fare in terms of maximum sensitivity, but how much of a performance drop do we see with the filters turned on?

I did some testing recently with a bunch of different detectors and radar gun. The results are posted up here. In that test I also tested all the detectors with the K band filters turned on and turned off. For some of the detectors which we run often like the Redline, Max2, and V1, I also tested various combinations of filter settings to see how much the individual settings impact performance.

Let's take a look first at a comparison between the detectors with full sensitivity and then the most popular K band filtering settings enabled. The top of the course shows full sensitivity. The bottom shows with the filters enabled.

K Band Results Filters Map.jpg

As you can see, the performance and range of every radar detector drops once the filters are enabled, some moreso than others.

Here's how each detector was configured for the filtered settings:

Redline: Auto, TSR On
V1: TMF2 On
Max2: Auto, TSR On
Passport: Auto, TSR On
RX65 M4: AutoScan, TSR On
Uniden LRD950 1.35: K Filter On
Whistler CR85: City, TSFR On (always XK Filter 1)
K40 RLS2: K band filter is always on, there's no options or way to turn it on or off
Cobra SPX 7800BT: CityXK
Radenso Pro: Highway (not City), TS Rej On

Unfiltered, the Passport, Redline, Uniden, V1, Max2, and RX65 M4 all did very well on this course. The Cobra, Radenso Pro, and K40 were all clustered around that gap where we have line of sight to the radar car just under a quarter of a mile away.

With the filters turned on, most of the detectors dropped down to the gap. The Radenso Pro and Whistler failed to alert in that gap with line of sight. Bad news

Because the K40 doesn't technically have the ability to run without K band filters, I didn't include it in the unfiltered section up top. It also came in towards the end of the pack.

The Cobra did surprisingly well on K band when unfiltered. Even though it was in the lower pack, it actually alerted a little before direct line of sight. It also managed to alert in line of sight when the filtering option was enabled.

The Whistler did very poorly, coming in last place both filtered and unfiltered.

The Radenso Pro also didn't do very hot. It came in towards the end, only besting the Whistler. While the unit is a standout performer on Ka band, its K band sensitivity is very much lacking. Unlike the other units where I ran City/TSR on, with this detector I ran Highway/TSR on. I did this because its City mode apparently lets you do low speed muting (which I don't need for this test) and will allow you to progressively reduce K band sensitivity. Given how poorly it did with Highway/TSR on, I didn't feel that crippling K band performance was realistically worth testing. Woulda been helpful to know purely for testing/educational purposes, but there was already a lot to get through and I decided to cut that. It needs every ounce of K band sensitivity it can get.

The Uniden did spectacular. It gave full performance even with the K Filter turned on. I was very surprised by this and even went back to confirm that the filter was turned on. It was. After the test, I've got a bunch of ideas in my head for why those results may or may not be valid. For example, does the unit need to be power cycled for the filter to take effect, even though every other feature takes effect instantly? Was it a freak one off detection? Does the K band filter even do anything? I dunno... lots of different possibilities that in retrospect, I'd like to see explored further. (Armchair quarterbacking my own test, I wish I went back and did another pass. That said, who's to say some of the other detectors may have also done differently on another pass for one reason or another? Where do we draw the line? Unfortunately due to issues of practicality and time, I do have to cut certain things.) Either way, great showing and definitely cool stuff coming from that Uniden. I'd like to test this out again sometime and see if these results are repeatable. It'd be cool to have others try this test out too.

The M4's actually did quite well when filtered, beating out many other detectors. The Passport actually beat out the Redline in both setups. Great showing there.

The Redline did very well with K band unfiltered, only getting bested by the Passport. It ran midpack with Auto and TSR on, so that does knock it down from its lead on this course when the filters are activated. One note is that I got stuck behind a bicyclist for a bit and had to go around when doing the Auto/TSR on run, right around when the detector alerted, and slowing down a bit may have messed with the results by giving TSR more time to alert, similar to a stew test. It still didn't come out near the pack though, even with this potential advantage.

The Max2 came in towards the bottom of the pack. I suspect this is because its TSR delay is so long that it just takes longer for the detector to go off. It matched or lagged behind the M4's. It tended to perform up in the higher realm of detectors, but towards the end of the pack.

The V1 was a solid performer. Up in the higher realm of detectors too. Not the pack leader, but also not the caboose.

Now let's look at how the different detectors fare when we tweak the K band filtering options a little bit and see if we can eek out a little more performance.

Redline:

K Redline Map.jpg

Highway and TSR off gives the best performance. Auto and TSR on gives the worst. Makes sense. Now flipping between with just one or the other, it looks like in this course, Auto Mode has more of an impact in performance than TSR. Thus if we're out away from cities and want to protect against blind spot falses, Highway/TSR on may be a compromise we could make to give us better performance than Auto/TSR on.

Max2:

K Max2 Results.jpg

The Max2 shows us basically the same thing that the Redline showed us: On this course and on these runs, Auto Mode had more of a detrimental impact than TSR.

Auto mode reduces sensitivity. TSR requires a longer duration signal to be present for the alert to happen. It's possible that on a different course, things may switch. Again, this is only testing on this course.

V1:

K V1 Map.jpg

For the V1, I tested with TMF2 off, but K POP on or off. K POP speeds up K band reaction time, but it didn't seem to help with range. In fact, it actually did better with K POP off which I suspect is more due to variability between runs than it is any changes to detector sensitivity/reactivity. I also did not power cycle the unit when switching K POP on or off. I remember seeing that it was sometimes necessary, sometimes not. I did, however power cycle the unit once I enabled TMF2, after I remembered about all this. I wish I power cycled it when switching from K POP off to on. Sorry about that.

Cobra:

K Cobra Results.jpg

Cobra has different filtering modes, Highway, CityXK, and CityMax. CityMax is its most aggressive filtering option, even filtering Ka band and cutting sensitivity there. For that reason I'd never run this, but I wanted to test it nonetheless. It didn't seem to do much beyond CityXK on K band. I didn't test it on Ka band.

Whistler:

K Whistler Results.jpg

With the Whistler, City1 and City2 will make the detector beep quickly then go quiet, helping mute false alarms. It doesn't have any impact on K band sensitivity. City1 reduces X band sensitivity, City2 disables X band detection altogether. This does seem to be reflected in my test. It's TSFR that has a huge impact on the results. In this particular test, TSFR drops the CR85's detection range from already subpar relative to other detectors to basically unusable performance. It would provide only a few seconds of warning before the kill zone. Again, things vary from one location to another thanks to the terrain, but on this course, that performance is unacceptable and could lead to getting owned by C/O.

So yeah, definitely interesting to see how these detectors change in practice. With the possible exception of the Uniden, TMF/TSR/TSFR can all definitely reduce your detection range in practice in addition to the obvious trade-offs you get with detecting brief signals in the first place.
 

TurboDriver

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Nice Job, very thorough testing. Thank you for your time and attention to detail.
 

PointerCone

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I am willing to take the hit on K band sensitivity to have a quieter ride with the Redline or the V1. I see little downside since it's still out of the kill zone.
 

protias

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I love to see this type of testing. :thumbsup:
 

hiddencam

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:thumbsup:

I'm a TMF user and definitely notice the reduced range. Had a k save today actually that highlights how little time one has sometimes to get ones speed down. Thankfully the V1 ramp up helps enormously in differentiating the real threats from the junk. Will post that in a while.

Thanks for for this awesome testing!
 

KASHER1979

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:thumbsup:

I'm a TMF user and definitely notice the reduced range. Had a k save today actually that highlights how little time one has sometimes to get ones speed down. Thankfully the V1 ramp up helps enormously in differentiating the real threats from the junk. Will post that in a while.

Thanks for for this awesome testing!
Yes same here. One thing about the V1 is it is really a BEAST on K band with all filtering off. It's just so tough to handle. I wish that they could get this thing filtering with no range loss.
 

THRASH

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Amazing write up and attention to detail! Thank you for your time and effort. Very informative.
 

GTO_04

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I am willing to take the hit on K band sensitivity to have a quieter ride with the Redline or the V1. I see little downside since it's still out of the kill zone.
Do you feel comfortable using the RL with TSR and Auto enabled in Lake County where they still use quite a bit of K band? I do not have much experience with Auto mode on the RL. I did NOT like Autoscan on the STi Driver so I am a little bit hesitant.

GTO_04
 

PointerCone

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Do you feel comfortable using the RL with TSR and Auto enabled in Lake County where they still use quite a bit of K band? I do not have much experience with Auto mode on the RL. I did NOT like Autoscan on the STi Driver so I am a little bit hesitant.

GTO_04
lake county, IL still uses K band quite a bit. I think the old K guns are being decertified, but there's some Kustom floating around and my fear is a Falcon rearing its head. Lately, on the newer ChryCo cruisers, they're on Ka band, so the K usage is trending less.

Im running the. Redline Auto with TSR on and even if range is skinned a lil bit, it's more than enough to run around. We've got lots of MDX Acuras and Odysseys running around making my V1C TMF1 units " K batty" , so I've been running the Stir-O on Ka/lidar only and the Redline Pro A with K on, MRCT/MRCD off and Strelka off.

its ironic that you asked, because this past weekend, wifey asked for her old pearl white 9500 iX back ( auto with TSR on ) because she couldn't take the v1C tmf2 falsing anymore on higher end vehicle BSM falsing, but says she misses the arrows. I offered to go lil c , but fear she'd miss a K shot. I said those were K band falses , so what's to miss? Volo is almost all Ka now , but McHenry still has some old K too. Fox Lake is all Ka.
 
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jeepxjdude2000

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Awesome, thanks so much! I've been hoping someone would run a test like this. Now I have to ask though...how about some I/O tests?

Back when I had my old Bel V8 I was running Auto & TSR on and it completely missed a K-band I/O shot and earned me a nice chat on the side of the highway.
 

SunTzuAOW

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This is becoming more and more a nightmare. I would run with TMF off everywhere except the highway. (Pretty sure MDSP only use 35.5), but now I have to turn it on, even on side roads because of BSM and what ever big rigs trucks are shooting out. Some of the trucks, give me full blast. It use to just be Audis. I want to leave TMF on, but not sure the reaction time and how much LEO's use I/O in MD. I can tell you one thing and I'll put together a video. They just put up a speed K band speed sign on post, and I almost have to get on it before my V1 goes off with TMF on, and its with a full blast. With it off I get plenty of range.
 

GTO_04

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lake county, IL still uses K band quite a bit. I think the old K guns are being decertified, but there's some Kustom floating around and my fear is a Falcon rearing its head. Lately, on the newer ChryCo cruisers, they're on Ka band, so the K usage is trending less.

Im running the. Redline Auto with TSR on and even if range is skinned a lil bit, it's more than enough to run around. We've got lots of MDX Acuras and Odysseys running around making my V1C TMF1 units " K batty" , so I've been running the Stir-O on Ka/lidar only and the Redline Pro A with K on, MRCT/MRCD off and Strelka off.

its ironic that you asked, because this past weekend, wifey asked for her old pearl white 9500 iX back ( auto with TSR on ) because she couldn't take the v1C tmf2 falsing anymore on higher end vehicle BSM falsing, but says she misses the arrows. I offered to go lil c , but fear she'd miss a K shot. I said those were K band falses , so what's to miss? Volo is almost all Ka now , but McHenry still has some old K too. Fox Lake is all Ka.
How does the Pro A compare to the US Redline as far as range, I/O detection, and BSM falsing? Looks like the wifey is getting hooked on the arrows.:) I've been running the Redline in my new Charger (pics to come soon) because I need maximum detection range. But making the multiple sweeps redundant has improved the 34.7 range enough that I feel more comfortable using the V1.

GTO_04
 
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PointerCone

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How does the Pro A compare to the US Redline as far as range, I/O detection, and BSM falsing? Looks like the wifey is getting hooked on the arrows.:) I've been running the Redline in my new Charger (pics to come soon) because I need maximum detection range. But making the multiple sweeps redundant has improved the 34.7 range enough that I feel more comfortable using the V1.

GTO_04
Its pretty much identical on Ka, BUT is brutal on K band. I picked up a mobile police K band speed sign today a good 1/2 mile before my .894 V1C did. I thought it was a K false initially, BUT the thing ramped real nicely and told me there was a legitimate K band sign. I had to turn off MRCD/MRCT and Strelka though due to falsing off BSMs on other cars. It's THAT sensitive. I am so tempted to send it to @Vortex for some testing. The beauty of it is, you can SEG K band and if I could ONLY figure OUT where most of my K falses are coming from on the 24 band , I could eliminate about 75% of them with the unit. There's an upside to K band segmentation IF and ONLY if we knew what exact frequency they are coming from.

I borrowed [MENTION=8888]MnBadger[/MENTION] K falses from his Stinger's Twin Cities trip(s). I wish I had a database of known K falses to at least narrow it down to a smaller segment in the band(damn near impossible though). Except for one (bolded in Red below), they were all above 24.1XX but below 24.2XX (which is also in the range of legitimate police K band radar too and therein lies the rub)....... You can seg the ProA to NOT alert to the following on K band segmentation:

Seg # 1: 23.950-24.110
Seg# 2 : 24.110-24.175 ** This is where the large majority of falsing is occurring in USA **
Seg# 3: 24.175-24.250

K False's (thanks to [MENTION=8888]MnBadger[/MENTION])

15:55 24.171 (0 bar front)
15:59 24.119 (0 bar front)
16:00 24.119 (0 bar side/both)
16:01 24.199 (0 bar front)
16:05 24.118 (0 bar front)
16:05 24.171 (0 bar front)
16:07 24.124 (0 bar front)
16:08 24.164 (0 bar front)
16:20 24.199 (0 bar front)
16:22 24.171 (0 bar front)
16:27 24.124 (0 bar front)
16:34 24.118 (0 bar front)
16:34 24.118 (0 bar side/both)
16:37 24.159 (0 bar front)
16:41 24.171 (0 bar front)
16:42 24:171 (0 bar front)
16:48 24.169 (0 bar front)
16:51 24.171 (0 bar front)
17:03 24.161 (0 bar front)
17:08 24.171 (0 bar front)
Long PIT STOP
17:49 24.177 (0 bar side/both)
17:57 24.171 (0 bar front)
18:14 24.185 (0 bar side/both)
18:37 24.118 (0 bar front)
18:46 24.171 (0 bar front)
18:49 24.119 (0 bar front)
18:50 24.105 (0 bar front)
18:51 24.171 (0 bar side/both)
18:58 24.118 (0 bar front)
19:00 24.168 (0 bar front)
19:04 24.119 (0 bar front)
19:11 24.118 (1 bar side/both)
19:13 24.171 (0 bar front)
19:13 24.156 (0 bar front)
19:15 24.171 (0 bar front)
19:28 24.154 (0 bar back)
19:28 24.118 (0 bar front)
19:33 24.124 (0 bar front)
19:40 24.118 (0 bar front)
19:42 24.118 (0 bar front)
19:44 24.124 (0 bar front)
19:45 24.124 (0 bar front)
19:52 24.147 (0 bar front)
19:59 24.083 (0 bar front)
20:06 24.166 (0 bar front)
20:07 24.121 (4 bar front) SPEED SIGN
11:12 MNbadger finger dislocation
 
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Holla

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Thanks for doing all these test, very good information. I may try running in Highway/TSR ON mode and see how it does since looking at the chart that combo will give me the most filtered range for my I/O K band buddies that run around the outlined airport areas and quite it down everywhere else.
 

PointerCone

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[MENTION=2404]Vortex[/MENTION] , can I ask a favor and have you hit some of your units with various k band guns you have and see what 24.xx frequency you're getting on legitimate police radar??
 

Vortex

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@Vortex , can I ask a favor and have you hit some of your units with various k band guns you have and see what 24.xx frequency you're getting on legitimate police radar??
Sure. Here's what I see.

Falcon HR: 24.121 on Max2
Kustom Hawk: 24.151, 24.166 on Max2
Raptor RP-1: 24.097, 24.109 on Max2
Python II: 24.147 on Redline

PocketRadar: 24.121 on Redline
Bushnell: 24.113 on Redline
 
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PointerCone

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Sure. Here's what I see.

Falcon HR: 24.121 on Max2
Kustom Hawk: 24.151, 24.166 on Max2
Raptor RP-1: 24.097, 24.109 on Max2
Python II: 24.147 on Redline

PocketRadar: 24.121 on Redline
Bushnell: 24.113 on Redline
Thanks Mr. Mani :)

Looks like I'll be able to do some K segging then below 24.110 and above 24.175 (Turn segs # 1 and # 3 off on the Pro A to see how she does (although all of the falses are in the same range as the legitimate radar too on K seg # 2 on the Pro A. Looks like I am buying some falsing on Seg 2 and getting rid of some on 1 and 3.
 

jdong

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Given where that RP-1 is, I'd be pretty afraid to segment...
 

STS-134

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I'd love to see the results for the Stinger on there, and whether TSR/BSM filtering affects the range at all on that system.
 

jdong

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I'd love to see the results for the Stinger on there, and whether TSR/BSM filtering affects the range at all on that system.
There's no equivalent setting....


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