Seattle Lidar Testing, ALP, LI 8.16a & 8.18, K40 G5, Max2, 9-20-14

Vortex

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We had a meetup today with @Hahns52, @Filibuster, @s1000rr, @stlth_amg, and @Vortex. LI just released firmware 8.18 and almost everyone on site today was running LI's so we had a great opportunity to try both firmware versions and see how stable the new firmware is. We also had a K40 G5 to run against a series of guns and see how it performed.

There were a few weird things we noticed, but things were mostly as we expected. For all the small PT's <150 feet, those we can consider irrelevant. We had a long straightaway for the testing course, but at close range the shooter was firing at extreme off-axis and from up on a hill. So there's cosine error, you won't typically be shot at point blank range, and all these other things that make those close range shots effectively JTG. That's why they're in green.

Here's the full results:

seattle lidar results 9-20-14.jpg


Hahns52's LI Duals were again bulletproof. He was running 8.16a/8.9 for testing and it was solid.

Filibuster was also running 8.16a/8.9 and his LI Quads that he just had remounted were excellent. We had some issues in the last testing with the PL3 vs. his LI's prior to the 8.16a and now his setup is bulletproof against the guns we tested as well. Most excellent!

My ALP's did great as well. There was one run against my rears where we got a long distance PT with the PL3. It was when traffic was going by and we suspect the reading was off another vehicle. When we retested later with no traffic in the way, it was JFG. It was also solid last week against the PL3 too so I'm not too concerned.

stlth_amg's vehicles were excellent as well. Great performance all the way around with 8.18/8.9 on both vehicles. There was one freak PT on his C63 with the LR B. There wasn't any traffic in the way for this one, but we retested again and it was JTG the second time.

The K40 G5, well it left some performance to be desired. The K40 we used is their latest and greatest version. It was a single head setup.

k40 miata mount.jpg


I used one of my test plates I use for the noPhoto/ProDB testing and temporarily doublestick taped the K40 head to it.

Is it fair to compare a single head K40 to a dual head LI or ALP? Well unlike the other manufacturers, K40 actually does deem a single head setup to be sufficient coverage. Not only that, but take a look at this video directly from K40 themselves. Look at where they mount both lidar heads in their dual head setup. They're side by side right under the plate.


So while on one level it is a bit apples to oranges to compare a single head to a dual head setup, we are still comparing a manufacturer recommended setup to a manufacturer setup. Anyways, all I was sent for testing was a single head setup so that's my thought process on the validity of the setup. If I had a dual head setup available, I would test it, and I'd mount it better. ;) If anyone feels it's not representative of what K40 is capable of when installed properly, I'll fully understand. In fact I'm quite sure it would test out better if it was a dual head setup. However, keep in mind that virtually no one installs K40's themselves. They're installed by installers who are told by K40 how to install these heads and the recommendations leave quite a bit to be desired and so it's very likely that K40 installs will be done poorly and so this test setup may be more valid that we may think at first. Anyways, will all that said, here's the results as tested.

k40 test results.jpg


As you can see, the K40 does perform best against center mass shots which makes sense considering the install. Moving away to either headlight, we got PT's.

Something else important to know about the K40 is that there is a 10 second time limit before it auto-JTK's. I don't have any controls or way to configure the unit since I wasn't sent that hardware for testing purposes. Thus our testing was limited to driving and seeing if we can get a PT within 10sec before it autokills the jammer and so "JTG" technically isn't truly JTG. It was more like "fully jams during the 10 second window before it auto-kills the jammers."

You'll see a second round of testing against the PL3. After doing the longer distance tests out on street, we did a second round in a parking lot at closer range and it was JTG on all runs, impressively enough. Hahns52 can give more insight into the K40 and how long it took to get the PT's (there were some IPT's) since he was the shooter for these runs. A big thank you to @SadisticPatrons for supplying the test unit!! :hfive:

My take on the K40 against the non-VPR guns is that while it can work, it's too hit-or-miss to be trusted. It probably will perform better if you go for a proper dual head install, but realistically no one getting K40's will take the time to make sure their heads are installed properly. If they've done that much research, chances are they'd go for a better product altogether. Installers aren't always installing these units to maximize their performance... Sometimes, yes, but not always. In the video posted above, the setup is functionally almost identical to what we tested (LR B vs. license plate mounted K40 G5's) and so I would suspect that they focused on CM shots only, though I don't have a way to verify where they were aiming. I'm sure you can imagine why they would do this though... ;)

We had the pilot production Max2 mounted for all runs in each vehicle. Throughout the day we ran it alongside some V1's, a Redline, 9500ix, 9500ci, LI, ALP, and ZR4. Naturally all the bumper/grill mounted units were excellent. Compared to the windshield mount detectors, the Max2 was the least sensitive of all detectors, both front and rear. Other detectors would alert sooner and the Max would often take much longer to alert, if it would alert at all. This behavior does seem to be in line with what people have seen with the earlier Max, but again this is a pilot production unit.

s1000rr came by with his bike and his Cobra iRad 900. The iRad 900 did a good job detecting lidar from the front, but it was blind from behind which makes sense because s1000rr's body was physically blocking the beam. With respect to how easy it is to pick up his bike with no jammers, it's basically instant acquisition <1000 feet. Beyond 1000 feet it's kinda hit or miss. Some guns give instant acquisition. Some guns are better at clocking the bike from the front, others from the rear. Shooter stability is also huge. Beyond 1000 feet the bike is so small that it's hard to keep the crosshair on the target. Heck even the red dot in the viewfinder is basically the same size as the bike itself! So yeah, you may get lucky >1000 feet for the front depending on the shooter, the gun, and the distance, but you can still clock bikes without a jammer.

So yeah, that's what we we found today with respect to the latest jammers and firmwares. :)
 
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KASHER1979

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Thank you vortex!
 

SadisticPatrons

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Excellent!! To be honest I'm surprised the K40 worked at all!! Adding to what you said about the install not being done right. You are correct! I had a K40 dealer install this on my friends car and the placement was totally bogus..when I asked the guy why there was no instructions he smugly said K40 only wanted trained installers like himself doing the work. (Uh ya ok Buddy!) Anyways to purchase this single unit plus install was approximately 600.00. So as Vortex noted anyone with half a brain who does their research would most likely end up buying a better quality setup. The crazy thing is they do actually pay your ticket if u get one. Thanks Vortex! !
 

Vortex

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Excellent!! To be honest I'm surprised the K40 worked at all!! Adding to what you said about the install not being done right. You are correct! I had a K40 dealer install this on my friends car and the placement was totally bogus..when I asked the guy why there was no instructions he smugly said K40 only wanted trained installers like himself doing the work. (Uh ya ok Buddy!) Anyways to purchase this single unit plus install was approximately 600.00. So as Vortex noted anyone with half a brain who does their research would most likely end up buying a better quality setup. The crazy thing is they do actually pay your ticket if u get one. Thanks Vortex! !
We were pretty surprised by the results too.

$600 for a single head setup plus professional installation? That's actually quite reasonable all things considered price-wise. Installation and coverage are obviously issues. There has to be some level of actual testing that someone is doing to find out what the best ways to install the products are. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to figure out that one head around the plate area isn't going to be sufficient.

On their website they do show examples of dual and triple head setups that are a little more reasonable.

Cayenne_2g5_big.jpg

Escalade_big.jpg

As for why the recommend the single head installed that way, maybe it's just so that can get sales to those who'd prefer to spend less $$. Their speeding ticket guarantee kinda reminds me of RMR's plan. Yes it certainly builds credibility and trust ("Only companies who are confident in their products would offer such a thing."), but people can often get by with subpart products and rarely will they ever have to pay out. Even paying out a few tickets they still wind up ahead, selling loads more products. It's a great marketing tool, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the product is all that. :)
 

SadisticPatrons

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Agreed.
 

jdong

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Wow, the K40 results actually weren't nearly as bad as I thought they were gonna be. I was expecting that one of the non-Dragon guns would cause it to IPT. The RALECT tests seem to show similar stuff.
 

Hahns52

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Just got home from Seattle!

Thanks everyone for coming out.

I too was surprised when I started pulling the trigger againts the K40 and it was jamming the guns, didn't expect that.
 

Hahns52

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Also Vortex had just picked up a PL3 and we were getting ready to test Fillibuster when this red Corvette goes screaming by, someone said "how fast is he going" I say "probably about 80", Vortex lifts up the PL3 and shoots him in the back, 86 in a 40 :p
 

Vortex

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Nice format. :D
We're fortunate to have some awesome people on here, aren't we? :D

Also Vortex had just picked up a PL3 and we were getting ready to test Fillibuster when this red Corvette goes screaming by, someone said "how fast is he going" I say "probably about 80", Vortex lifts up the PL3 and shoots him in the back, 86 in a 40 :p
:rofl: Oh yeah!! That was awesome. :D

You could hear him blasting towards us and as the red C6 tears by, it dawns on me that I have a PL3 in my hand. :D :D IPT on the rear plate and no brake lights until a few moments later before he slows just enough to weave through traffic ahead and keep going.

Every now and then you have one of those moments when you think, "Man, I REALLY wish I had a radar/lidar gun right about now," and then sometimes you actually do. :p
 

crm

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Thanks for all the information Vortex! Also, thanks to all who took the time to test and help out. We appreciate the testing.
 

Hahns52

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Another thing we witnessed yesterday was jammer interference. Most of the group left briefly to find a restroom, as Fillibuster was pulling out the lot I shot him in the rear with my LR100, after a second or so I hear Vortex's ALPs go off, then IPT on Fillibusters car, they were a good distance apart and pretty off-axis from each other.

Approximate diagram of how it went down.
c4sH3vj.png
 

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Had a great time yesterday. Test days are one of my favorite ways to bore my wife. :p Can't believe how well my car did on the course yesterday. Much better than our last outing in April. I was expecting worse results, if anything as I finally reluctantly added a front license plate after getting a ticket. Also my rear sensors were reinstalled by persons unknown at a body shop. Both of those things could have been a disaster for my numbers, but I upgraded to the latest LI firmware just before the test from 8.15. I really get the feeling 8.15 was not the best firmware version, and may have contributed to some PT's in April, especially from the PL3.

It really was amazing when that C6 roared by. I think I would have tinkled my pants a little bit if he had jammed Vortex's PL3 shot as he was rocketing away like a boss, but it was still great.
 
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BlackMX5

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You'll see a second round of testing against the PL3. After doing the longer distance tests out on street, we did a second round in a parking lot at closer range and it was JTG on all runs, impressively enough.
What was the approximate initial engagement distance for the parking lot test?
 

KOMO

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Very cool, wish I could of made it out for the testing.
 

Hahns52

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What was the approximate initial engagement distance for the parking lot test?
Around 400 feet.

As best I could tell, all the K40 PTs came through at approximately the 10 second kill time.
 
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Vortex

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Robotpedlr

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Is there another Seattle area testing scheduled for anytime soon. I just installed ALPs on my Cayenne and am eager to see how well I am covered.
 

Vortex

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Is there another Seattle area testing scheduled for anytime soon. I just installed ALPs on my Cayenne and am eager to see how well I am covered.
PM me. We can set something up to get you tested.
 

KOMO

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x2, I would love to get in on some testing.
 

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