Midwest Testing Chapter "MWTC"- Radar - October 5th, 2013 (1 Viewer)

PointerCone

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Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Love the Scanning Knight Rider Display my self. But with it off it shows in full word, a bit larger and does not get rid of the boxed out part.



Certainly does in that case. Would be a pain to subtract the seconds of hold from distance travailed within it.
CJR, the Max has an approx 14 second latch.. As you drive away from source, it would lose the signal, continue to latch and then gain it back on the hill crest. The other units let you know exactly what they were doing and were easy to interpret there, NOT so with the Max. You yourself said months ago and so did Nine that the latch was too long.
 

protias

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Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

THANKS!

Thanks for the efforts and the overall honesty in presentation. It appears the comments made long prior to the testing by some owners pretty much paralleled the overall results.

As expected the owners of the Redline product should be very happy with the results and consistency of the great operation of this product with it's most recent update. The STI-R owners had an excellent showing in the testing results as well.

In a post @ ERF that was made in the Passport Max area after the testing was completed, the OP stated that owners of ERs newest RD might be surprised (with the results).

Knowing what we know today the results and happenings at this event as presented, were not all that surprising. Indications pretty much paralleled the individual postings and videos in various forums over a period of months pertaining to both the good and bad issues associated with this product. The results and comments found in this test were consistent with a huge number of individual tests and many of the unbiased reviews as well as general news and related marketing statements associated the this new products release.

I had also read @ ERF that an owner of the newest ER RD product wished that the new 1.6 beta FW would have been tested as there were statements in posts on ERF made after the testing was over that indicated it had not been tested. I'd bet that the current users with of the 1.6 beta FW felt it may have done better at least on one of the devices.

It has been known for a short while that 1.6 beta has been available to a chosen few. Those few that were likely sought out for their expertise and allegiance to the brand. However like the original release of the product, it seems there may be some question about the viability of the 1.6 FW release given PC's cryptic statement made in a post below the results of the test:



I am sure one day PC will indicate the meaning and need for the confidentiality associated with that comment as it relates to the testing of his device and the October 5th test.

Those that were looking for validation in this statement (whether it be hype, exaggeration or honesty):



are finding that ER is probably still waiting to release the final production software.


It would have been nice to have seen more entries of ER's newest product so that a curve could have been developed. It would require more people to have have bought the device and bought it the event. Perhaps next time ER could assist and provide a couple of non-cherry picked production "off the line" models for future testing.

Someone must be very pleased with the results of the STIR-O as both statements and presented results showed it did very well. It is a wonderment as to why that technology (hardware) would not have been used in design and production of the "Finest Radar Detector... ... Ever Made".

Once again, thanks to those that spent their time, money and efforts to do this testing. It appears that the results were done in a scientific manner. Thanks for the presentation as well. I looks like it would be an enjoyable event to participate in.


One thing...

Is this a serious statement?



If it is, could it be clarified in relation to the testing of the other devices?

Thanks again!
[HR][/HR]I found this after posting. This must be related to the question related to PC above
The only one with remote units was me, so thanks. :D darkpenguin has a Plus, but that is in his other car, which met a deer a few weeks ago. :( It will live again though! :)

And yes, the latch time is a huge issue when driving away. The only way to really find out the distance is to point the Max the other way (hmmm, that's a good idea for the next event!).
 

PointerCone

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Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

The only one with remote units was me, so thanks. :D darkpenguin has a Plus, but that is in his other car, which met a deer a few weeks ago. :( It will live again though! :)

And yes, the latch time is a huge issue when driving away. The only way to really find out the distance is to point the Max the other way (hmmm, that's a good idea for the next event!).
Or get Belscort to fix the latch issue........................
 

STiMULi

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I will tell you all about it tomorrow. Just update you Max on Tuesday and I'll give you all the answers you need. IN the meantime, a promise is a promise to ER and I wont disregard that!!

I knew you would otherwise you would have never mentioned it. ;)

And I agree, a promise is a promise.
 

CJR238

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Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

CJR, the Max has an approx 14 second latch.. As you drive away from source, it would lose the signal, continue to latch and then gain it back on the hill crest. The other units let you know exactly what they were doing and were easy to interpret there, NOT so with the Max. You yourself said months ago and so did Nine that the latch was too long.
Yes its way to long, not like the ~8 seconds like the others. But max detection range from initial alert has nothing to do with that latch time, 2500ft detection is a 2500ft detection. However you are 100% correct it would effect results as you drive away from source and give you the impression of rear detection much greater than it is in reality.

And the math from its latch time to speed driven would be a nightmare to do for testing. :p

---------- Post added at 06:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 PM ----------

Or get Belscort to fix the latch issue........................
Big X2
 

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Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

The only one with remote units was me, so thanks. :D darkpenguin has a Plus, but that is in his other car, which met a deer a few weeks ago. :( It will live again though! :)

And yes, the latch time is a huge issue when driving away. The only way to really find out the distance is to point the Max the other way (hmmm, that's a good idea for the next event!).
THANKS!

So the latch time is the the culprit.

I saw the close measurements in the to and from and this may indicate that my "virtual arrow test" (trying to indicate a front or rear attack) may be less useful when doing one technique.

The other "virtual arrow test" just works unless the Bear is in the Air shooting radar. ;)
 

PointerCone

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Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Yes its way to long, not like the ~8 seconds like the others. But max detection range from initial alert has nothing to do with that latch time, 2500ft detection is a 2500ft detection. However you are 100% correct it would effect results as you drive away from source and give you the impression of rear detection much greater than it is in reality.

And the math from its latch time to speed driven would be a nightmare to do for testing. :p

---------- Post added at 06:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:54 PM ----------



Big X2
Seriously, we're NOT taking anything away from the Max's performance and it did excellently on both 33.8 and 35.5. However, with the + , O , V1 and even RL, its very easy to tell when the unit has lost the signal...........Protias and I noticed it together when driving away from the source (antenna forward) and then on the hills and valleys of the course. ON a straight flat road it may not be an issue (or it very well may be) . It would drop the signal, come back , drop it, come back etc etc. We gave IT (the Max) the benefit of the doubt and recorded the longest distance where it still held the signal,(not the shortest one where it dropped it) so we were MORE than generous to the Max. This was not an issue coming to the RF source because the RF was getting stronger.................

BUT, and so we're clear, we all agreed that we have to watch latch issues in testing because they can make for a deceptively good unit (where it may NOT actually be so good)..............
 

comno6

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Thanks guys so much for all of the hard work! This is really great info.

A few things that stood out to me: Wow did the Max kick some butt on Ka. I was shocked how well it held up to the big boys.
It also shocked me how closely all of the units compared.
 

GTO_04

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What were the V1C settings?
My 3.892 had an extra 33.8 sweep, one 34.7 sweep, and one 35.5 sweep. TMF was off on all runs.
My 3.893 (shown as #2) had just the default 33.8 sweep, one 34.7 sweep, and two 35.5 sweeps with TMF off.

As I always suspected, my 3.892 is NOT as good on K band as my 3.893 and the testing confirmed the difference. It finished dead last! This is disappointing because the V1 has always been known for stellar K band detection. I did send my V1 back to VR to have it checked and they said it was within spec. So it's just unit-to-unit manufacturing variation.

The Redlines did very well on 35.5 as expected and they were all very consistent in performance! And they did surprisingly well driving away from the radar.

GTO_04
 

dinkydi

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big thanks guy's, that type of testing, aint never gonna happen here on the east coast in OZ :( so it's great to see the results
 

bkayrac

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In a post @ ERF that was made in the Passport Max area after the testing was completed, the OP stated that owners of ERs newest RD might be surprised (with the results).
You aren't surprised by how well the max did?
 

Nine_C1

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You aren't surprised by how well the max did?
I don't know about Stimuli, but I was quite surprised by how well the MAX did relative to the RedLine in these tests on 33.8 and 34.7. Consistency seems to be an issue though with MAX #2 falling down sharply on 34.7 and both units struggling with 35.5.

Even so, in a straight line that digitized M4 has some range when it's clicking. I think we'll continue to see the M3 distinguish itself when there are some bends in the road though.;)

Thanks for all the time and effort doing these tests and putting together an excellent presentation.

PS. How the heck did you guys get driving towards data for the STi-R installed on the back bumper? That must have been fun!:p
 

protias

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We are still missing the obvious, the Max, once again, did NOT beat everything on all bands.

I don't know about Stimuli, but I was quite surprised by how well the MAX did relative to the RedLine in these tests on 33.8 and 34.7. Consistency seems to be an issue though with MAX #2 falling down sharply on 34.7 and both units struggling with 35.5.

Even so, in a straight line that digitized M4 has some range when it's clicking. I think we'll continue to see the M3 distinguish itself when there are some bends in the road though.;)

Thanks for all the time and effort doing these tests and putting together an excellent presentation.

PS. How the heck did you guys get driving towards data for the STi-R installed on the back bumper? That must have been fun!:p
Well, you keep driving until it stops alerting. Same concept as putting it out front and driving to the source, just in reverse order of detection. :p
 

Nine_C1

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We are still missing the obvious, the Max, once again, did NOT beat everything on all bands.



Well, you keep driving until it stops alerting. Same concept as putting it out front and driving to the source, just in reverse order of detection. :p
homer-simpson-doh.png
 

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Thank you guys for taking the time to do this awesome testing. I find it quite strange but interesting at the same time. The max is inconclusive, the high variability in the results makes it strange and statistically insufficient for a final conclusion. All the others are behaving as good as a heavy weight fighter can. I was hoping the Redline would outperfom the STI-R + on some runs but still, at least for this course, Beltronics holds the heavy weight champion title.
 

PointerCone

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I don't know about Stimuli, but I was quite surprised by how well the MAX did relative to the RedLine in these tests on 33.8 and 34.7. Consistency seems to be an issue though with MAX #2 falling down sharply on 34.7 and both units struggling with 35.5.

Even so, in a straight line that digitized M4 has some range when it's clicking. I think we'll continue to see the M3 distinguish itself when there are some bends in the road though.;)

Thanks for all the time and effort doing these tests and putting together an excellent presentation.

PS. How the heck did you guys get driving towards data for the STi-R installed on the back bumper? That must have been fun!:p

Nine, in all fairness and using my 1.4 unit which we tested as an example, the Max did quite well against everything except for the O! Protias and I drove in his car with the O away from the source to test how long it could hold onto the signal. It never failed to impress and kept going long after the course ended. I watched the display and it just didn't want to let go.

With regard to the Max, we did not get a chance at 1.6 because of boot issues on my unit which ER tells me were resolved and should be out tomorrow ( Tuesday ). We will do some more "concentrated" and limited testing of the Max with 1.6 to see how she really does on a longer course both going to and away from source. In fairness to the testers, this was not a flat course, so all units except for the O would drop the signal and then reacquire it on crediting the hill and we gave the benefit of doubt and recorded those units at their longest detections, not the initial first drop.

Finally, nine , you and I have been doing this a long time. Getting a feel for a units performance takes time and living with the Max for 2.5 months now I can see potential. I played with some off axis and you're correct, the game changes off axis and on 34.7 as well..... And as far as the redline, it continues to impress . The biggest laggard, if there is such a unit, would be the V1. If you told me a year ago it would be mid- pack, I'd bop you in the head. Now, backyard testing shows that it's starting to show its age in a group of standouts, that being the Redline, Max and obviously the O. I still believe in my heart of hearts that the biggest limiter after firmware is hardware and that may very well be hobbling the V1 and the Max in the future.

if you'd like, I'll send you my 1.6 this week and you can test it against the King and see how she does.PM IF INTERESTED. I'd love to see what you think?

---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------

Correct. Provided it dropped the signal in the first place. Some of the runs, it was still going off when turning around at the end of the course.




I have Protias' 3 Ka guns used in this test at the moment, if he's cool with it we can meet up this week or next weekend to do a bit of retesting with your Max. (and car)

Suggest you you guys download 1.6 on Tuesday and retest the Max, taking into account the latch times on the away from source and adding off axis for all three guns. My preliminary tests show the Max is weaker than others on Off axis! We can do some more in a few weeks if you guys want to go near Burlington and do some long range testing and some off axis as well.
 
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thesilverbullet

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thanks for the info - nice summary / presentation of the data. and special thanks for the v1.6 release date. i have been concerned with belcort's statement that v1.6 with reduce ka false alerts without reducing range. would like the details. good to know the max is catching the rl as i just pulled the trigger on a rl....
 

PointerCone

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thanks for the info - nice summary / presentation of the data. and special thanks for the v1.6 release date. i have been concerned with belcort's statement that v1.6 with reduce ka false alerts without reducing range. would like the details. good to know the max is catching the rl as i just pulled the trigger on a rl....

You won't regret that RL FOR A MINUTE, it's that good!
 

Nine_C1

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Nine, in all fairness and using my 1.4 unit which we tested as an example, the Max did quite well against everything except for the O! Protias and I drove in his car with the O away from the source to test how long it could hold onto the signal. It never failed to impress and kept going long after the course ended. I watched the display and it just didn't want to let go.

With regard to the Max, we did not get a chance at 1.6 because of boot issues on my unit which ER tells me were resolved and should be out tomorrow ( Tuesday ). We will do some more "concentrated" and limited testing of the Max with 1.6 to see how she really does on a longer course both going to and away from source. In fairness to the testers, this was not a flat course, so all units except for the O would drop the signal and then reacquire it on crediting the hill and we gave the benefit of doubt and recorded those units at their longest detections, not the initial first drop.

Finally, nine , you and I have been doing this a long time. Getting a feel for a units performance takes time and living with the Max for 2.5 months now I can see potential. I played with some off axis and you're correct, the game changes off axis and on 34.7 as well..... And as far as the redline, it continues to impress . The biggest laggard, if there is such a unit, would be the V1. If you told me a year ago it would be mid- pack, I'd bop you in the head. Now, backyard testing shows that it's starting to show its age in a group of standouts, that being the Redline, Max and obviously the O. I still believe in my heart of hearts that the biggest limiter after firmware is hardware and that may very well be hobbling the V1 and the Max in the future.

if you'd like, I'll send you my 1.6 this week and you can test it against the King and see how she does.PM IF INTERESTED. I'd love to see what you think?

---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:39 PM ----------




Suggest you you guys download 1.6 on Tuesday and retest the Max, taking into account the latch times on the away from source and adding off axis for all three guns. My preliminary tests show the Max is weaker than others on Off axis! We can do some more in a few weeks if you guys want to go near Burlington and do some long range testing and some off axis as well.
Well said Glenn.

The advantage of the V1 has long been it's larger front horn biased more heavily for on-axis reception along with it's speed. It's always been a stand out on K-Band due mainly to it's blistering response on that band in POP mode. The custom sweeps was gilding the lilly......making an already quick detector even faster, but the benefit on ka band was quite tangible.

The Bels on the other hand had more inherent sensitivity (M3s) but were handicapped by horribly slow response times keeping it a tight race. Segmenting and turning RDR OFF tilted everything in it's favor. Now the M4 was no slouch (on-axis) but lacked speed and LNA's for the extra reach to match either. The M5 deals with both those issues with a completely redesigned back end....incorporating PLL tuners to step the LOs precisely and quickly and replacing the FM demodulator with an A/D converter and averaging engines. It still has a ways to go to get to the consistency of the M3's IMO and is still hobbled by that M4 cast horn with respect to off-axis reception, but it can and likely will get better.

I'll PM you when I'm ready to do another head to head on my turf but I want Escort to tell me when their ready. I'm not testing on a straight road so they better get it right.:p
 

bkayrac

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I'll PM you when I'm ready to do another head to head on my turf but I want Escort to tell me when their ready. I'm not testing on a straight road so they better get it right.
Should have seen our first course Protias selected.......What a nightmare :p The falcon wasn't even barely picked up, I was actually kind of looking forward to seeing how the KA guns were on it, but alas there was some revenue generating happening there.
 

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