Midwest Testing Chapter "MWTC"- Radar - October 5th, 2013 (1 Viewer)

darkpenguin

DSC off
Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Messages
1,470
Reaction score
577
Location
WI
Midwest Testing Chapter - Radar Testing
October 5th, 2013


We met up this past Saturday for a bit of radar testing. We initially had an excellent spot that turned out to be exceptionally difficult. On top of that, the local revenue collectors safety enforcers were patrolling the area heavily, so we moved to site #2.
Conditions were high humidity, upper 70s. Some rain from time to time, noted per case below.
Attendees were Protias, PointerCone, RickyBobby, GTO_04, bkayrac, CobawLT2010, and myself.

Testing included:
  • X - MPH K55
  • K - Falcon HR
  • Ka (33.8Ghz) - MPH Bee III
  • Ka (34.7Ghz) - Stalker DSR 2X
  • Ka (35.5Ghz) - Decatur Genesis II
Notes on installs:
  • Redline #1 and 8500 X50 S7 was tested middle center mounted in a BMW Z4. This resulted in it being about 1.5-2ft lower than other Redlines, but with a clear view of rear window. No noticeable difference was found having the top down vs up.
  • STi-R Plus was tested centered mounted under front bumper
  • STi-R was tested center mounted under rear bumper


The Course (#2)
2.25km long. Last third is slightly curved. Many elevation changes made this course sub optimal, though challenging as well.
Testing-10.5.13-satellite.PNG

Elevation data from GPS. Thick clouds from storms prevented good GPS accuracy, but this gives a good picture of the terrain.
Testing-10.5.13-elevation.PNG

Dashcam footage of the course, courtesy of bkayrac.
[video=youtube;K8cgB_ttzg8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8cgB_ttzg8[/video]



X Band - MPH K55
Starting to drizzle. Course was certainly maxed out for this one. Data in meters.
10.5.13-Xband.PNG

10.5.13-Xband-graph.PNG




K Band - Falcon HR
I was the only one who recorded "Driving Away" data. Data in meters.
  • Groups of 4 in bold black outline were run all together in the same car at the same time.
  • Suspecting a fluke or random reflection in the case of the 1900m datapoint on the Plus.
10.5.13-Kband.PNG

10.5.13-Kband-graph.PNG





Ka Band (33.8Ghz) - MPH Bee III
Light rain during beginning of test, quickly ended.

  • We have good reason to believe the data on the Max is inaccurate due to flawed testing procedures. Due to the Max's 14 (or 16?) second latch time, these numbers are greatly exaggerated, however likely still impressive if we could accurately correct, post testing, for the 14 second delay.
  • In the future, Max testing must involve very slow driving near the fringe of reception, possibly even stopping and backing up to find the true edge of reception.
10.5.13-33.8.PNG

10.5.13-33.8-graph.PNG




Ka Band (34.7Ghz) - Stalker DSR 2X

  • Once again, data for Max #1 is likely very inaccurate. Max #2 is likely closer to accurate, but can't be trusted completely until properly retested.
10.5.13-34.7.PNG

10.5.13-34.7-graph.PNG




Ka Band (35.5Ghz) - Decatur Genesis II
Got the Max figured out.


  • Max #1 is still inaccurate though less so than in previous tests
  • Max #2 data is likely accurate due to development of proper testing procedure given long latch time.
  • STi-R RDR on runs of 30m and 20m are likely glitches or other inconsistencies. Not enough time due to approaching storm to delve into deeper.
  • 8500 X50 S7 is missing data, but was recorded. Looking for it tonight.
10.5.13-35.5.PNG

10.5.13-35.5-graph.PNG


Comments welcome, constructive criticism of testing and results presentation requested.
Thanks everyone!
 

Attachments

bkayrac

Premium RDF Member
Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
2,950
Reaction score
2,361
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Thanks for putting it together Darkpenguin and Protias, and thanks Protias for setting up the event.

That said, while I feel something was definitely up with the max(Mine specifically), I am not so sure it is strictly based on the latch time. Mostly due to it dropping the signal sometimes multiple times, and re-acquiring it further down.

However even with that said, I still have my doubts that either of the max's truly has the ability to beat the redline. Things should be more clear as people get there hands on max's and commence more testing.
 
Last edited:

dave07

Learning to Drive
General User
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
14
Reaction score
5
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Thanks for the data! Love the graphs. You say the data for the max is inaccurate due to excessive latch times. Is this only for the "driving away" data? The "driving to" data should be accurate, correct?
 

MrUnknown

Learning to Fly
Beginner User
Joined
Aug 19, 2013
Messages
86
Reaction score
38
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Thanks for the data! Love the graphs. You say the data for the max is inaccurate. Is this only for the "driving away" data? The "driving to" data should be accurate, correct?
That's what I was wondering.

I've never really seen mine latch 14 seconds onto a signal (I had a POP alert go on forever, no Laser ones yet).

If this is including driving TO the source, I would think the initial bleep should be considered a detection.
 

bkayrac

Premium RDF Member
Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
2,950
Reaction score
2,361
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

The max was putting up some crazy numbers. My max basically max'd the course on all KA bands(then it also had runs that were more consistent with other detectors/the other max).

Reflections? Latch times? Ability to pick up weak signals? It's very hard to tell, however during my first 33.8 run with my max, I stopped asked about others results with other detectors, power cycled it, and made another run, as I was surprised it would max the course.

I personally don't think it's latch times, just due to my max specifically dropping the signal on the way out, then re-acquiring it(34.7 and 35.5, it never dropped 33.8, or only dropped it once for 1 second). However if it's not a latch time, I do have a hard time believing it would outperform the other detectors so much, when thats not what we have seen so far. So I am at a loss for what to think with it.
 

milkman

Premium RDF Member
Advanced User
Premium Member
Acceptus
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
15,696
Reaction score
6,293
Location
Missouri
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

A Very Special Thanks to All of you guys that put this together! Darkpenguin the graphs look very nice and Professional! Just a SUPER JOB My FRIENDS and Thanks again For Sharing!
 

SpeedCounterMeasures

Premium RDF Member
Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
May 17, 2011
Messages
5,855
Reaction score
1,766
Location
Ohio
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Great to see these posted! Thanks to everyone involved I know it takes a lot of time and resources!
 

darkpenguin

DSC off
Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Messages
1,470
Reaction score
577
Location
WI
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Thanks for the data! Love the graphs. You say the data for the max is inaccurate due to excessive latch times. Is this only for the "driving away" data? The "driving to" data should be accurate, correct?
Correct. Provided it dropped the signal in the first place. Some of the runs, it was still going off when turning around at the end of the course.


The max was putting up some crazy numbers. My max basically max'd the course on all KA bands(then it also had runs that were more consistent with other detectors/the other max).

Reflections? Latch times? Ability to pick up weak signals? It's very hard to tell, however during my first 33.8 run with my max, I stopped asked about others results with other detectors, power cycled it, and made another run, as I was surprised it would max the course.

I personally don't think it's latch times, just due to my max specifically dropping the signal on the way out, then re-acquiring it(34.7 and 35.5, it never dropped 33.8, or only dropped it once for 1 second). However if it's not a latch time, I do have a hard time believing it would outperform the other detectors so much, when thats not what we have seen so far. So I am at a loss for what to think with it.
I have Protias' 3 Ka guns used in this test at the moment, if he's cool with it we can meet up this week or next weekend to do a bit of retesting with your Max. (and car)
 

alloy00

vMax
Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Messages
2,606
Reaction score
2,651
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Thanks everyone! Awesome stuff.

Were both Max'es using v1.4/1.5 FW?
 

bkayrac

Premium RDF Member
Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
2,950
Reaction score
2,361
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

I have Protias' 3 Ka guns used in this test at the moment, if he's cool with it we can meet up this week or next weekend to do a bit of retesting with your Max. (and car)
I am fine with that, either this week or the upcoming weekend, after that my schedule gets pretty flakey on when I will be home, as hopefully I will be starting a new job.

I'm also saving the 5+gigs of video footage right now, perhaps we can use that to review and help us understand the detection differences, and perhaps get some insight on what the max was doing.

---------- Post added at 02:02 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 PM ----------

Thanks everyone! Awesome stuff.

Were both Max'es using v1.4/1.5 FW?
1.4
 

barry

PSL +5
Intermediate User
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
184
Reaction score
163
Location
Alabama
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Thanks everyone for carrying out the testing and putting the results together. Interesting results; including a few surprises. By the way, I must be overlooking something with the last two sets of results (the attached images). What band/bands were they for?
 

rjk

PSL x2
Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2013
Messages
4,535
Reaction score
2,433
Location
Ohio
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

STiR-O was mounted in the rear? Did you drive the car in reverse along the course in order to get the numbers?
 

darkpenguin

DSC off
Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2012
Messages
1,470
Reaction score
577
Location
WI
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Thanks everyone for carrying out the testing and putting the results together. Interesting results; including a few surprises. By the way, I must be overlooking something with the last two sets of results (the attached images). What band/bands were they for?
Ignore those. Not sure why they're there.

STiR-O was mounted in the rear? Did you drive the car in reverse along the course in order to get the numbers?
When driving away, STiR-O was testing "Driving To" while the Plus was testing "Driving Away". Swap for return drive.
 

buckdharma

Learning to Fly
Beginner User
Joined
Mar 9, 2012
Messages
106
Reaction score
14
Location
Midwest
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Thank You guys, it takes the Passion and love of the sport and I share that with you.
Much Respect
Don
 

Ianaber

PSL +5
Intermediate User
Joined
Jul 22, 2012
Messages
108
Reaction score
22
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Thanks for a great test guys. Appreciate the hard work!
 

PointerCone

M3 Kng
Advanced User
Lifetime Premium Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2011
Messages
23,142
Reaction score
22,641
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

The max was putting up some crazy numbers. My max basically max'd the course on all KA bands(then it also had runs that were more consistent with other detectors/the other max).

Reflections? Latch times? Ability to pick up weak signals? It's very hard to tell, however during my first 33.8 run with my max, I stopped asked about others results with other detectors, power cycled it, and made another run, as I was surprised it would max the course.

I personally don't think it's latch times, just due to my max specifically dropping the signal on the way out, then re-acquiring it(34.7 and 35.5, it never dropped 33.8, or only dropped it once for 1 second). However if it's not a latch time, I do have a hard time believing it would outperform the other detectors so much, when thats not what we have seen so far. So I am at a loss for what to think with it.
Point(s) of clarification here:

1. I did datalog with Protias in HIS car the Stir-O and the + on the Falcon HR mounted in my car at the rest area.(Course # 1) IIRC, the O was the ONLY unit that was able to see the HR K band on both the out bound (going away from gun since its mounted in rear) and coming back to source on the opposite side of Highway past the other rest area. Protias has my notes on the going away from source and coming to the HR source on K band. I do believe that the one V1 in Cobalts car was also able to see the K band, BUT no other units saw it.

2. We elected to use away from source (meaning driving away from it) and coming to source (going toward the fixed source) since its easier to understand for users than just FF/On axis etc. There was NO off axis done in this testing this time)

3. The two Max units tested entirely differently in different cars, ONE the ' stang and one Kia.....On several runs on BOTh going away from source and coming toward source, we simply ran OUT of room to continue the runs...............(this was a tough course for both the radar operator and the RDs since it had a slight curve at end and also dips( meaning "real world testing here). Some units, Max and Redline included, would drop the signal at the bottom of a dip/slight decline and then pick it up again at incline or crest of hill . The Stir-O was mounted on the rear of the 'stang facing backwards and rarely if ever dropped the signal. I kept the eye ont eh Stir-O and the Max and Protias primarily did the +. This is the way real world radar works and shows real world encounters as far as the hillsand dips go. . AN LEO could be deadly on this course because he could sit at bottom of hill/dip and your RD wouldnt see it until he gotcha!! IN fairness to the Max, , it did extremely well on 33.8 and 35.5, BUT left some to be desired on Ka 34.7

4. With regard to the Max units, BOTH were v. 1.4 (mine was originally 1.6 beta), BUT that's a whole other story for Larry and I to address confidentially). Mine is listed Unit # 2) and was set up Highway, TSR OFF and X Band OFF; K and Ka ON and Lidar ON. One thing to note on the Max is that it is hard to test in some regards because of the very long latch times (its about 14 seconds) after the source is gone. It is my belief that it why it appears to show some numbers better than they are since it would HOLD onto the alert after the RF was gone. All units have a latch, BUT the Max's is longer than all and can make a user believe that the signal is still there long after its gone. I would watch the spec meter go to zero, BUT the unit was still alerting?? Latch times were an issue when the Max was introduced and even in pre-pro and appear to continue to be an issue. 5-8 seconds like a V1 would be preferrable. The Max needs more testing.....

5. We had two courses set up, BUT had to abandon # 1 since the rest area we had was on a hill and it was unlikely a LEO would ever shoot from that area and get a lock. We elected as a group to go to Course # 2 and used a fixed (parked vehicle) running various radar units (separately of course) to evaluate the detectors performance. Quite simply, because of road length limitations , we simply ran out of space to run some of the units BOTH to and away from the source and this includes the Max and the Stir-O. Weather was high humidity with light rain to start and then heavy rain in afternoon (at lunch) with more high humidity, temps started in 60s and rose to low 70s. All radar units were run from the same source at the same location through the same windshield in the same vehicle to allevaite any variance in radar units.

6. Because of time and space limitations, we ran RDs in separate cars and the possibility does exist that some RDs were getting the benefit of reflections from other vehicles running the course. In general though, we stayed away from one another. Also, some windshields & glass are "thicker" than others and insulated to make for a quiet ride and that as well may affect WS mount RD performance. We also tried to eliminate "inherent bias" and had one person record the times/distance with a UNIT NOT their own to the best extent possible. My Max was run with three people in the car, two who watched the unit and one who recorded the distance with their phone on alerts. I watched distances with BK to alleviate any bias toward or against the unit.

7. The Stir-O is almost ten year old Bel technology and its performance as a remote unit still amazes Protias and me to this day. On almost ALL runs, it simply ran OUT of course and never once did I see it drop the signal on a hill or dip. It killed on X band as well, the final runs of the day............................(as an example, since its mounted on the rear of his car, it wont see signals very well coming to the source since its mounted behind (facing to the rear instead of front) and below the source. ON several runs , it beat units that were mounted in the car coming toward the source). Simply amazing!! Don't believe me, take a look at MrKookm's video!!
 

buckdharma

Learning to Fly
Beginner User
Joined
Mar 9, 2012
Messages
106
Reaction score
14
Location
Midwest
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Thanks Guys,
What bugs the hell out of me on all tests, They show inconsistencies on Like Models. Is QC that bad out of the Factory? Another question I was lead to believe Max version 1.6 was going to improve K Band. Was I wrong?
Respectfully
Don


The max was putting up some crazy numbers. My max basically max'd the course on all KA bands(then it also had runs that were more consistent with other detectors/the other max).

Reflections? Latch times? Ability to pick up weak signals? It's very hard to tell, however during my first 33.8 run with my max, I stopped asked about others results with other detectors, power cycled it, and made another run, as I was surprised it would max the course.

I personally don't think it's latch times, just due to my max specifically dropping the signal on the way out, then re-acquiring it(34.7 and 35.5, it never dropped 33.8, or only dropped it once for 1 second). However if it's not a latch time, I do have a hard time believing it would outperform the other detectors so much, when thats not what we have seen so far. So I am at a loss for what to think with it.
 

PointerCone

M3 Kng
Advanced User
Lifetime Premium Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2011
Messages
23,142
Reaction score
22,641
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

Thank You guys, it takes the Passion and love of the sport and I share that with you.
Much Respect
Don
Thanks Buck, dont fear the reaper :)
 

CobawLT2010

The Third RDF
Advanced User
Premium Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
7,307
Reaction score
3,541
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

I do believe that the one V1 in Cobalts car was also able to see the K band, BUT no other units saw it.
Yup and that was even with TMF on. I seen little to no difference with TMF on or off in both test locations.
 
Last edited:

PhilP

Lifetime RDF Contributor
Intermediate User
Lifetime Premium Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2013
Messages
465
Reaction score
315
Location
STL, MO area
Re: MWTC - Radar - October 5th, 2013

May I ask how distance was determined?

I'm surprised the Max was so-so against 34.7; all reports so far (and my own experience backs it) are that the Max is pretty darn good on 34.7. A retest would be quite interesting.

Nice work though, and interesting results indeed. The Max wasn't as lame as some would expect (even very competitive with the V1C), but again, it does still point out the capability of the segmented M3 models.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 1)

Latest threads

Social Group Activity

Forum statistics

Threads
76,681
Messages
1,168,097
Members
19,689
Latest member
rottenit
Top